The Technological Domain, with Tricia Friedman

For many, contemplation of the technological domain, the massive swift growth of generative AI, for example, comes with fear and trepidation. So we’re delighted to be joined today by Tricia Friedman, who brings calm, inspiration and fun to the challenge of imagining future technologies.

In this conversation we talk about not just generative AI, but also cross species communication, mobile phone bans in schools, and how to involve everyone in the conversation about technological change.

Tricia Friedman (she/her) is a long-time educator who has worked in the US, China, Thailand, Morocco, Ukraine, Indonesia, Switzerland, Singapore and now currently lives in Canada. She’s founder of Allyed.org and Director of Learning and Strategy with Shifting Schools. Tricia is an avid podcaster, you can catch her on Be a Better Ally, Unhinged Collaboration, Shifting Schools, and if you listen closely you might occasionally hear her dog weigh in too.

Connect with her on LinkedIn where you’ll catch her talking about the intersection of #AILiteracy #InformationLiteracy #MediaLiteracy and how #DEIJ is integral to those literacies and leadership.https://www.linkedin.com/in/tricia-friedman-allyed 

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Find out more about MSB and download our paper, Futures-Focused Leadership for International Schools, at www.makingstuffbetter.com

You can find us on Linked in at

Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/

Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Transcript

THIS TRANSCRIPT IS AI GENERATED

Matt Hall  00:03

Hello and welcome back to Principled from MSB

Naomi Ward  00:07

This season offers international school leaders a provocation to think differently about the future of education and their role in the creation of this future. It's an opportunity to continue thinking seriously and deeply about the legacy that school leaders leave behind through concerted action in the present. To frame this provocation, we will be bringing together the latest research and thinking about futures focused leadership, alongside insights from interviews with experts from across the international school sector and beyond.

Matt Hall  00:39

Each episode, we will explore a different domain, and in the following episode, we will put the thinking through its paces with the panel of school leaders, some highly experienced, some new in role and some emerging. We're so pleased to have you join us.

Matt Hall  00:54

Well, welcome back, folks. Here we are in season three of the Principed podcast. Great to get started after that little discussion with Patrick and the recent publication of our paper with him, and now really, really looking forward to diving far more deeply into those, those different domains that he identifies, we identify in that paper. What's really nice about this, what we're going to do here is, is that we're really going to flex between bringing experts, people with a real focus on a particular area of those domains in one episode, and then we're going to, we're going to take that thinking and explore a bit deeper with school leaders, people who are in and amongst it. So so here we are, and looking forward to the expert in the room session today, and Naomi, you brought, you brought someone along who I don't know that much about but, but you do, and I'd love for you to explain to me and our listeners who Tricia is and why, why we brought her here?

Naomi Ward  01:51

Yeah, absolutely so Tricia Friedman, I'm sure many of our listeners will be aware of she is just a dedicated learner and a curious human being and incredibly generous. She's one of those people who will just make the connections. So if you show an interest in something, she will take the time to say, Well, speak to this person. This person read this. So she's someone who really walks the talk of her fascination with learning AI schools, dei and looking towards the future, yeah, and in this conversation, I'm just looking forward to being in her presence, because she's just one of those people that makes you more open to ideas and what's going on out there. So yeah, I hope listeners will feel the same as we dive into this conversation with Tricia.

Naomi Ward  02:53

Welcome Tricia,

Tricia Friedman  02:54

Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here. I am honored to be on a show that's doing so much great work, and even though you didn't ask, I'm gonna just share my one of my favorite episodes you had Dee Lanier, who is such an insightful voice in education. So listeners, if I'm droning on and you're bored with this one, maybe go to that episode next.

Naomi Ward  03:14

Well, thank you for promoting the rest of our podcast. And yeah, that Dee's episode, which was, um, you know, deeply human about designing learning. And so here we are, and this episode is about we're responding to our paper futures focused leadership for international schools, and we're diving into the technological domain, which is evolving alongside the human Of course. So I'm just curious, what does futures focused literacy mean to you, and or future focused leadership, and why now? Why is now a good time to be diving into this?

Tricia Friedman  03:54

Future focused literacy, to me, means that we are really seeing the imagination as one of our most critical skill sets, while simultaneously realizing it is hard to be imaginative and we cannot truly do that work in isolation. We need one another. We need to be making up stories together. We need to be talking about what those stories, or as futurists would describe them, scenarios, what they make us feel, and really deepening our awareness of what and how do I talk about the future, especially if I'm a school leader, especially if I'm an adult whose, You know, job is to nurture young folks my metaphors for the future, what I assume about their preferred future, and vice versa. These are really important things that I think sometimes just get glossed over. And right now, we're in what futurist Amy Webb describes as a Hyperloop change cycle. Where things are changing at, you know, an almost unbearably quick pace. And so ironically, I think it's sort of like we have got to figure out ways to slow down and really think about where we're going. And futures literacy is something that will help us with this.

Naomi Ward  05:16

And when it comes to this world of technology and education, I wonder, how do you practice imagination about that?

Tricia Friedman  05:25

It's a boring answer, but I read very broadly, very deeply, and I am neurodivergent, and this is an area where, actually, I also see my neurodivergence as sort of like a superpower. It is what I think helps me read so much, which then nudges me to connect with others, to have conversations like the one that we're having right in this moment. So I think a futurist would say you have to be transdisciplinary. You have to be paying attention to things that are outside of your interest area. You have to be talking and communicating with others. I think a lot of the implicit goals we have for the young folks in our life, you know, be curious and engage with material. And I think as I'm saying this, this might sound really simple, but if you talk to a lot of young folks and you ask them how much time they have to be making connections between their own lived experiences and more than one subject area. I think that answer and response can often be very telling in that we are still doing education in a way where this is isolated over there, that is isolated over there, you know, even to circle back to technology as the focus digital literacy. I think even is misnamed. It is literacy, you know, I think the idea that there is a thing called Cyber bullying is just bullying, right?

Matt Hall  06:56

Yeah, there is a real sense in the paper as a platform of this, this, this idea of technology as not being a new one, you know, kind of revisiting the fact that this emergent technology is not something that the human species is new to in this in this age, whether it be the invention of the pen or the book or the radio or the Television, it just so happens now that kind of generative AI is our is our latest version, and when we're at the threshold of things, we can't imagine things beyond them. But actually the themes that go around our anxiety associated with them feel like they're they're quite long. They've been around for quite a while. 

Tricia Friedman  07:39

Yeah, it's sort of one of those examples of a lot of things change and stay the same simultaneously. And Matt, that aspect of your paper was actually the thing that I really honed in on. And I think if school leaders only, and I'm not saying only discuss one thing, but if they only talked about one thing, talk about, why? Why do we have so much technological anxiety? And the context that's brought up, it is a good reminder for us to go back and think people were terrified of the radio. Legitimately, you can dig into the research on this, and we thought that teenagers were going to become addicted to their radios this there was a big moral panic around sewing machines and stop let's ask why, you know, like, fundamentally, why do we get so afraid? And there's no shame around it, right? I think this is part of the process, because when a technology as influential as generative AI comes into our lives, it is shifting a lot, and yes, this means the education that I had is going to look dramatically different than what the education needs to look like today. And that brings up some emotions for people. I think maybe that makes them think, was my education bad, or if things are changing this dramatically. What else might change so dramatically? Maybe this sounds like a leap, but I really think there's a through line between our anxiety around technology and our mortality. Things change significantly, and that's Naomi. I know that we're both in the fan club of Adrian Marie Brown, who is a futurist and also talks a lot about how with organizational health, we have got to get more comfortable with the idea that there's a death to things that businesses sometimes need to die, that a initiative that you're working on, it's okay to let it go. And I think that idea of grief, emotional literacy, our capacity to grieve together, this is actually an element that's missing in school leadership. There are aspects of the ways that we've done education that some people. Are going to be really sad about the five paragraph essay dying, but it's been dying for so long. You know, I feel like it's been it's been sick, it's been chronically ill for a long time. Grieve it, if you must. But at the same time, what might we celebrate as emerging after that passes. And I think this is a conversation we actually need to have. What is possible if we let go of that, what new ways of learning, of communicating, of demonstrating knowledge are maybe, you know, out there along the horizon?

Naomi Ward  10:39

I hear your excitement when you think in this way. And I, I think what you're invoking is that reframe to curiosity imagination and away from reactivity and to creativity. And that's such an insight there that. But first we need to let something go, really provocative, actually. And we'll be discussing these themes with our round table of school leaders. And I think that's a great one to think about. What are you what are we losing in this as we make a transition? And I'm also thinking about everything. A lot of what you're talking about is the natural world and what we can learn from just those cycles that are in us and part of us. So while it might seem a little alien, it's actually who we are to move forward in this way.

Tricia Friedman  11:41

Yeah, I mean, and again, this is where I feel like, I won't try to quote Adrienne Maree brown too much here, but she has this amazing quote about, you know, a caterpillar does not imagine that it's capable of flight, but it's inevitable. And I think as educators and school leaders were in that same sort of mind trap of, we're not quite sure that we can do something so different, and it's inevitable because we are going to have to, I think. 

Matt Hall  12:15

There's a something that really comes out for me and what you're saying around this, this idea of grief and letting go. And I think that there's something, maybe not to articulate it perfectly, but there's something in identity here. You know, the schooling I was subject to, part of a process of is so fundamentally linked to who we are, for good or for bad, as does that? Does that resonate with you?

Tricia Friedman  12:42

Yeah, and I hear this a lot, actually, when I'm doing workshops with parents and caretakers, because I think it's even more personal for them, where they think my childhood I'll get to experience my childhood again through the lens of this human that I've brought into the world, and I can understand that there's some heartache in that. But again, as Naomi mentioned, if we can reframe and think it might not be the same, it might be something better. You know, again, I think it's a an abundance mindset that we need to cultivate. And when I'm doing specific training around generative AI and how it can support learners, as soon as I start digging into some of the stuff around executive function or role playing for I have to have this difficult conversation, or I'm nervous about this conversation, immediately I get a sense from a lot of parents and caretakers of, Oh, wow. Actually, this can be used in a way that feels very human, because, you know, I'm guessing like me, you've heard a lot of folks say, well, generative AI is going to replace creativity, and no one will be a critical thinker. And I know this is kind of spicy, but I think What world do you live in right now where we see creativity and critical thinking thriving in schools, you know? And again, I'm not I know that's spicy, and I know that there are so many of us that are doing a really great job with that, despite a lot of the systems and the curriculum that want to suppress it and want to leverage compliance. There's a lot of curriculum models out there, and a lot of teachers I talk to when you ask them, What would you teach and how would you teach if you didn't have standardized testing this assessment piece this as a benchmark. They've got amazing answers. And there was a great study that basically came out against this idea of skills gap. And the author said, we don't have a skills gap. We actually have a gap in terms of what it is that we're trying to assess. Yeah, and that's a big barrier for folks. And I mean, I see this in many, many, many schools, where we have this artificial end point that's preventing a lot of the things that we would like to see flourishing right now.

Naomi Ward  15:18

And I think in the paper, Patrick calls that critical praxis. This is I'm learning. We're all learning together listeners. And it's that sense of looking at the systems that are holding in place the past, essentially. And as you were talking about that critical thinking, I was like, well, that starts with us, right? Because the young people aren't doing it unless they see it and they feel it and they're they're hearing it, 

Tricia Friedman  15:45

The modeling, yeah, the modeling piece. And I think that's where, if you're really genuinely feeling right now, like generative AI is stifling creativity, do an audit. I mean, literally, do an audit, you know, do that follow a student and see how many times they have an adult in their educational system. And I want to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying this is a fault of an educator like this is a systems issue. How often do you really get to experience them modeling the role that imagination plays in their life. And I just, I kind of think a lot of folks might be like, Well, do we have time for that flip, that question, what else right now looking at the state of the world is more critical for us to make time for.

Naomi Ward  16:38

And actually, as you say that, I have a kind of grief for my nine year old and my 16 year old, who were in that classroom where the imagination isn't just expected. So maybe we come I don't know what the question is. Maybe you know what the question is. But is it something about, how does technology support us to foster imagining about the future, or we? Are we talking about imagining a future with AI? Where do we need to go now?

Tricia Friedman  17:15

Dr Fei Fei Li, who's known as the godmother of AI, says AI is also a misnomer. There's nothing artificial about it. We know this, both in sense of its energy, but also she's talking specifically about it is designed to behave like us. It is designed to be a reflection of us. And so this is important for us to remember, both in terms of the bias piece. You know, sometimes people will say, AI is so biased. Society is biased. It's replicating that behavior. But do I also see that we have this incredible, remarkable tool to assist us in doing some of the work that we would like to do in a more humane way? Absolutely, yes. I, as I speak right now, my my father, he's going to be okay. He has prostate cancer, so he's undergoing his first round of radiation today, and he was very nervous about the treatment system. And for anybody that's, you know, been in that place where you're dealing with health issues and you're talking to doctors, or you can't get on the phone with your doctor when you would like to I built him a custom bot. I trained it on the best research I could find around radiology and his specific training course that he was going to go on. But the critical part of the bot, my father and my mother loved the HBO comedy show called Veep, and so I trained the bot to have the voice of a character on that show. So the doctor is Dr Selena, is his bot, and he was able to engage this bot back and forth and ask it questions and be better prepared for his doctor visits. And that's one part. And then the other part was, as his daughter, I got to do something for him, and I got to do something for him because I have some skills and I have some curiosity, and I am also a part of a network of folks who are learning right alongside of me and are encouraging me. This is a technology that we don't know yet, what it's capable of, and the way that we learn is by experimenting and playing and trying and sharing things with one another. And I think that is so critical right now. And I again, in the work I'm doing with schools, I set them up with a lot of different frameworks just to do that experiment, play, try, just try, be playful, and then talk about it. That's going to be some of your best professional development that you can do. And again, people will say, well, that's going to take time. Yes, that is going to take time. And you're. Have some people who are upset. Listen to them. Find out, what are you upset about? Because a lot of it comes back to is this going to be able to do something better than I can? It might be able to do certain tasks. It can research better than I can. This technology, Stanford's got a great new tool out. It's free. It's called storm, yes, that can, you know, collect and curate research way faster than I can, but can that tool engage my peers in the research in a more dynamic way? I hope not, and I right now, I don't think so, but I think again, it's about thinking, what are the things we deeply need from one another, as colleagues, like, what really matters to us in this ecosystem, and what are some of the things that, Hey, it's okay that this technology does that a little bit better. You know, I'm from New Jersey, so pizza metaphors are ripe, and a lot of my stories, I cannot make pizza better than what's possible a from a pizzeria, but without certain technology tools, it's basically unedible. That's okay. I'm all right with having some assistance there.

Matt Hall  21:17

And just to I mean, I love that story of your dad, and I'm glad you say is going to be okay, thinking of him at the moment, particularly today, one of the lenses that the paper offers is this, is this possible, probable, preferable, potential outcomes of this shift? And you've started to give us some insight there in terms of your perspective on what's possible, probable, preferable. You know, we're definitely not in this podcast or the paper trying to do that. This is, here's the 10 things every school leader should be doing with AI. So let's steer away from that. But I am curious, based on your experience and your expertise in this area, around what? Yeah, what is possible, probable and preferable when you think of maybe specifically generative AI or and or other technologies we don't yet know?

Tricia Friedman  22:07

A great example of this. And I'm picking this example specifically because I'm uncertain, actually, about where I land with the preferable versus possible. And I think another part of futures literacy is getting more comfortable with uncertainty and being more transparent about when we don't know. So for folks who love animals or you have a pet, I would nudge you to look up something called Zuo linguo, like Duolingo, but zuolingo, I learned about it a while ago, and it kind of put me on this track to have a deep dive into what generative AI is aiming to do, to basically translate communication between animals, interspecies communication. And there's actually, it's the Doolittle color challenge right now that's happening around the world for different scientists who are working in conjunction with generative AI to decode communication between bats, whales, bees, a whole range of things. And the more that you look into this AI generated interspecies communication thing, you're going to find scientists. There's like a real argument around, should we be doing this? What's the impact? And that debate is so fascinating, because on one hand, you have a lot of scientists saying this will be similar to when we landed on the moon, and we could not have predicted all of the innovation that would follow from that, all of the Wonder. And a lot of scientists are saying this might be the thing, that, from a conservation standpoint, we begin to realize our species is not the only one with intelligence, perhaps is not the dominant intelligence. More folks might become vegetarian, and that might have a huge ecological impact, and sustainability goals might be met. And then there are other scientists who are saying, hey, what if we get this wrong and we disrupt whale migration patterns, or we all find out actually, like your dog hates you, your dog doesn't like your family? Yeah, the heartbreak, right? And it is such an interesting thing to play out in terms of where this might go. But I'm very, very interested in this preferable future in which we, we don't say human intelligence is the epitome of wisdom. You know, I think about birds can figure out how to migrate without Google Maps, like I can barely, you know, go to someplace I've driven to 15 times without Google Maps. I'm a human who lives with a dog. I absolutely adore my dog, and there's research about dogs being the only species who will play until the day they die. They value play their whole lives. Imagine if that was a part of our value system and our worldview about life like that is intelligence. 

Matt Hall  25:09

Yeah, that certainly sounds preferable to me. You remind me of the or you're bringing to mind for me the you know the challenges that exist beyond education, in in rapidly emerging technologies. My wife does a lot of work in clinical genetics, and where the the what is possible in clinical genetics, in terms of predicting potential health outcomes is is phenomenal, whether it's preferable or not. Actually, the ethics and the law can't quite keep up with it. You know, you find out something about the middle daughter in a chain of three generations who, who's entitled to know about that information, who owns that information? So, yeah, I think this, this dancing, this line of what's possible versus what's preferable is a really, really important one for school leaders, and that's where that that kind of moral and ethical compass is such a again, will remain such a key part of of school leadership, in a way that I can't imagine. Any sort of technology starts to determine our ethics, at least I hope not. That's not my preferable future, that's for sure.

Tricia Friedman  26:21

And I think that risk is there if we don't make time for conversation, I think actually that's a very easy thing to fall into. If we're saying, you know, let's just rush to a decision. Let's not listen to people, which, again, future study is very much about listening to others deeply, being very curious about others. And I, you know, you're bringing to mind right now what's going on with phone bands, and you know, again, in terms of what's influenced that and how that decision has been rolled out. You know, I think if you want to help students have a healthier relationship with technology there is doing that, and you can make those adjustments in a way that's very participatory, or you can move towards doing what you think you want in a way that reiterates that schools about compliance and who has power and who does not? So, you know, again, I am just a little bit concerned in some of the ways that conversations have not really happened around that at a deep level, it feels very, very reactive and not very participatory.

Naomi Ward  27:37

So it's some there's something about the nature of the conversations that we need to have is different, too, and that slow urgency, and you know, you know, a homogenous ecosystem is gonna die fairly quickly, whereas, you know, if we bring in as many voices as we can, and the voices we don't always listen To, like young people, sometimes not saying everywhere, but yeah, having a conversation about a phone band, it has to involve young people, right? So I'm wondering what that as our listeners are thinking about holding these conversations, what might they want to put in place?

Tricia Friedman  28:15

Oh, gosh, I love this question, because there's a, I think, a variety of ways you can learn from dogs and get playful with it. And there's one practice that Some futurists, and I'm glad you know, you reiterate, the paper does not say, Hey, this is the way to do it. And future studies, lots of folks are saying, figure out the way that's going to make the most sense within your context, and listen to your context. And one idea is, when you are doing any kind of decision making process, have at least one member of your team represent an entity from the future, like, I'm a part of your organization 10 years out, and I'm hearing what you're saying today. Let me give you my perspective on maybe what you wish that you had done for your legacy. And they talk a lot about how short term ism is again, like a real barrier that we've got to be more aware of. And I think again, about the ways in which schools maybe had a short termism mindset around social media education when it first came onto the scene. I don't want to see that repeated with generative AI. So I think if you want to do one simple thing, have a member of your team and rotate this role. I'm here, I'm listening, and my job is to be the futures representative. How might that shift conversations?

Matt Hall  29:36

I love that Tricia, and we normally go straight to give us a couple of takeaways, but you've been me too, I think, what a great place to finish. If you do one thing, and we don't like to, we don't like to kind of bottom line things as simply as that, but I know often our listeners are busy and on the go and receiving a lot of information quickly and making decisions. So yeah, what a lovely What a lovely thing to. To do a lovely way of encapsulating this thinking, have someone play that role. We should certainly start doing that at MSB.

Naomi Ward  30:05

I think so. And it's that's welcoming, not knowing, imagination, playfulness, being present with each other, which these qualities that we're needing to cultivate as we as we really inquire. Yeah, we're having that conversation. So thank you.

Tricia Friedman  30:30

Well, thank you again, so much for the invitation. And you know, here you are modeling uncertainty. You know, I think we are in a time where there's a lot of unknowns, there's so much change, and I appreciate in this conversation the emotional intelligence side to it. You know, I felt completely comfortable even sharing that anecdote about my father, because in listening to the ways that you shape conversations on this show and the care that you bring to your guests, that's what made it possible. And I just kind of think it is a reminder that navigating any change if you do not have that emotional care, trust piece. One last analogy, you know, when I'm kind of a nervous flyer, and so I always try to scope out, like, where are the pilots? Do they look like they're in an okay mood. Do they look like they're rested? School leaders like your community is always checking that out, too. Do you look like you're looking after yourself? You're cared for? You're well rested? That's going to matter.

Naomi Ward  31:36

Well. Thank you so much. It's going to be a bit of processing for the rest of the day. And, and we really encourage listeners, you know, follow Tricia. She hosts so many fascinating conversations and, and it's a place of learning. So, um, thank you for being here, and we'll see you again. Thanks, Tricia.

Tricia Friedman  31:57

Thank you. 

Matt Hall  32:04

That was a really interesting conversation. Didn't entirely go the way I thought it. Thought it would, what, um, what came up for you, Naomi?

Naomi Ward  32:13

Well, it's just um, such a pleasure to be with Tricia. She's so knowledgeable and kind of open hearted to conversations and building community around these huge questions. And she really shifted my perspective. I think about how to approach and be playful and tap into our imaginations around these questions of future, future leadership, yeah. What about you? What's your what are you left with? 

Matt Hall  32:47

I think, yeah, I come back to, I think, in my mind, often, often see kind of generative AI, technological development, kind of one end of a spectrum, and kind of human engagement and creativity at the other and and what I think she's really good at doing is saying, actually the two dance kind of in the same space, and one is the reflection of the other. I kind of see one is kind of mechanistic and separate to what it means to be human. But there's a invitation in what she says, I think just to likewise in the paper, I think to accept the inevitability of technological advancement and then and in letting it in, allow new possibilities to emerge, rather, whereas I still feel there's like a resistance in me to it, and that's, that's how she's helped me shift, I think.

Naomi Ward  33:38

Yeah, So it said that kind of shift in awareness, and I think that piece about, you know, what we're losing, perhaps, and to consciously acknowledge that. Okay, so if this is coming, this is what we're losing, and let's, let's name that. And there might be some sadness there, perhaps that's some of the resistance. So I thought that was such a human point. 

Matt Hall  34:01

Yeah. And I never thought we'd be talking about grief and generative AI in the same conversation, but we were and and it sets us up really nicely, I think, for the roundtable discussion that's coming around. What does this actually mean for people in schools and yeah, what's the reality of this work on the ground, as it were,

Naomi Ward  34:21

yeah, yeah, very much. So Well, I'll see you at the round table...

Matt Hall  34:27

Looking forward to i. Some some big questions to ask. 

Matt Hall  34:31

You can download a free copy of our paper, futures focus leadership for international schools by signing up on our website, makingstuffbetter.com and don't forget to like and follow Principled, so you don't miss an episode. 

Naomi Ward  34:46

You've been listening to Principled from MSB. The podcast was produced by Emily Crosby Media with music by Lucy Farrell, released on Hudson Records.