Ecological Domain Round Table

Saving the planet can seem a daunting and overwhelming task, so how do we communicate the scale of the problem with hope and excitement in our schools? In this episode, we’re joined by three educators to discuss the domain of ecology and nature with a futures focus.

Kenny Peavey, originally from Georgia, USA, has over 23 years of experience teaching across Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia. Currently, he teaches Science, Math, and Regeneration in a dynamic outdoor setting at Green School Bali Middle School. 
He has led thousands of students on experiential expeditions throughout Southeast Asia focused on cultural immersion, ecology, adventure, and service learning. Passionate about sustainability, Kenny has undertaken initiatives like cycling from Thailand to Bali on a bamboo bike to promote environmental awareness and kayaking around Phuket to highlight marine conservation.
He is also the author of The Box People - Out of the BOX!, a children’s book that encourages sustainable communities and connection with nature. Recognized for his commitment to environmental education and conservation, Kenny has received Volunteer of the Year awards from both Georgia Adopt-A-Stream and the Malaysian Nature Society.

Rose Scavotto is MYP & DP Biology & ESS Teacher and EcoSchools Coordinator at Benjamin Franklin International School. As a sustainability-focused educator, whose strengths include interdisciplinary work and hands-on projects, her goal is to create global citizens with a passion for bettering the world.

Tatiana Ramirez is the Founder of Pebble Effect (www.pebble-effect.net). Tatiana is on a mission to inspire and engage change makers to create a more sustainable and just world for the generations to come. She leverages 15 years of experience in sustainability education to amplify the positive impact of international schools on social and environmental justice. 
Tatiana helps schools align their strategy and actions with the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and aims to foster cross-sector collaboration to drive lasting and systemic change.
In previous projects, Tatiana has advised international schools in Spain and Germany through their systemic transformation and the Eco School certification process. She has also initiated and facilitated partnerships with the Jane Goodall Institute, UNICEF and Foundation Airbus.

Our guests shared the following resources - 

https://kennywpeavy.medium.com/regenerative-education-teaching-and-learning-that-heals-and-restores-4c82b445b3d6

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o9WBd-Sr4rBypLCMbeiRsjN5ed6qKxTl/view

https://www.gerhardcenter.org/resources-and-articles/what-is-regenerative-education

https://compasseducation.org/

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Find out more about MSB and download our paper, Futures-Focused Leadership for International Schools, at www.makingstuffbetter.com

Contact the team about our Futures-Focused Pledge at https://zcal.co/t/makingstuffbetter/talktotheteam

You can find us on Linked in at

Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/

Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Matt Hall: Hello and welcome back to Principled from MSB. 

[00:00:07] Naomi Ward: This season offers international school leaders a provocation to think differently about the future of education and their role in the creation of this future. It's an opportunity to continue thinking seriously and deeply about the legacy that school leaders leave behind through concerted action in the present.

To frame this provocation, we will be bringing together the latest research and thinking about futures focused leadership, alongside insights from interviews with experts from across the international school sector and beyond. 

[00:00:39] Matt Hall: Each episode, we will explore a different domain, and in the following episode, we will put the thinking through its paces with a panel of school leaders, some highly experienced, some new in role, and some emerging.

We're so pleased to have you join us. 

[00:00:54] Naomi Ward: Welcome back to the Principal Podcast and we are here today to talk about the ecological domain, um, with our panel of experts. So welcome. 

[00:01:04] Kenny Peavey: Hello, I'm Kenny. I'm currently at the Green School in Bali. I've been overseas for about 24 years. Um, I left the United States in the year 2000 and I've been teaching about 27 years, mostly science.

In 2012, I started taking my kids outdoors, so I've kind of shifted gears to outdoor learning or outdoor education outdoors. And mostly it's science and ecology. It fits really well to get them out doing field work and experiencing nature firsthand, collecting data, doing citizen science and all the cool buzzword type stuff that we like to say.

But the crux of it is just getting out of the classroom. Doing the teaching and learning outside the four walls. 

[00:01:48] Tatiana Ramirez: Yeah. So I'm Tatiana. I am originally from El Salvador, but I've been out, um, my country since 1998. I'm actually a bit of an outlier because I'm not an educator. I'm not a teacher. Um, but I have been working in education for sustainability for 15 plus years.

I first started, um, designing and managing a sustainability or environmental education program at the Jane Goodall Institute Roots and Shoots program in Shanghai, and that led me to now Working with international schools to understand what their impact is on the environment and find ways to reduce it through collective action in their schools and by empowering their change makers that are already there and just need the space and the support from the school to get going.

[00:02:57] Rose Scavotto: My name is Rose. I'm originally from the U. S. I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts, and this is my third year here in Barcelona at BFIS. Before that I was in Dubai, at the American School of Dubai for three years, and before that I was teaching in Vermont. And I teach science. What I've been doing here at BFIS is really like, I think, changing my, changing my pathway a little bit, um, because I've been teaching, um, DP, ESS, which is Environmental Systems and Societies, and that's really opened my mind a lot more in, um, sustainability.

And I've always been passionate about sustainability, uh, but this, like, learning about the course and the curriculum has helped me dive a lot deeper into that. And then I was also Um, voluntold to do the EcoSchools program, as Tatiana knows. So I kind of, uh, dove into that, yeah, without really understanding what it was at all.

And so I appreciate all the help, um, from Tatiana. And, uh, it's been a really cool experience to, um, be leading the school as a whole. It's a whole school program. And then also, um, working with the kids in a high school action group. sustainability club. And then, uh, last year, a passion project of mine is to teach kids about edible education and, um, where our food comes from.

So I started a garden last year on the rooftop here at BFAS. And we've had middle school kiddos from, you know, 6th grade to 10th graders helping out. And that's been just a really lovely experience and something I hope to continue to grow and bring to my teaching. 

[00:04:36] Matt Hall: So I'm gonna, we're gonna start with, I'm gonna, I'm gonna provoke like the paper does.

Um, um, the paper says, for young people in schools today, as for future generations, there is an existential question about the future of the planet. Should we continue to pursue the modernist dream of the good life? There is then an argument to be made that the current education systems are profoundly unsustainable Exactly because they socialize young people in the expectation that the future should and will inevitably involve participation in consumption and production at the cost of the longevity of the planet.

Fascinated to jump off at that point and hear your perspective on that. 

[00:05:19] Kenny Peavey: What I'm thinking is what is the definition of the good life? I think our traditional definition is acquiring lots of material wealth that comes from a linear extraction model of the economy. So to redefine the good life, I would want to redefine it as having enough, not an overconsumption of like, I don't need the huge house and two cars.

and flying everywhere like the modern jet setting dream that we have. Accumulation of material wealth to me is not the good life, but having enough. So how do we redefine that? I would change the question to how do we redefine it to a new definition of the good life so that there is equity for everyone to have some sort of semblance of the good life however we redefine it.

[00:06:08] Tatiana Ramirez: I would agree with that, Kenny, because You know, if, if we continue in the current trend of inequality growing within countries and between countries, then you can't continue enjoying, um, this material, uh, consumption if we are destroying the planet and leaving people behind. So it's, I agree we need to redefine and, and how to bring that into the education.

And have those conversations with, um, students and teachers and parents, I would say as well. 

[00:06:49] Kenny Peavey: Yeah, and I'm, I'm in an interesting position that I live in Indonesia, and my wife is Indonesian, and I can see two very distinct economies. There's the tourist western economy and then the local economy. And they're very different in terms of, What you consume, where you go, where do you take your holidays?

What do you eat every day? And there's often five to 10 times difference and the amount of money that you can spend for a similar experience or a meal thing, it's interesting to notice the Western tourist economy and the local Indonesian economy. 

[00:07:23] Matt Hall: And that, that good life as being a Western construct in that example, I guess.

[00:07:29] Kenny Peavey: Yes. You 

[00:07:30] Matt Hall: know, we're fed this idea of a good life, but it's a, it's a very Western lens through which that's been constructed. 

[00:07:37] Kenny Peavey: Yes, and I think it's very related to consumption. You can't be happy unless you're buying something or consuming something, so I think that's a big part of it. 

[00:07:46] Rose Scavotto: This is something that I, um, I'm trying to focus on with my students, is really, how do you teach students about the reality of the situation in the world, uh, sustainability wise and climate change wise, and the reality of overconsumption, while also, you know, they're 16, 17 years old, so how are you also able to inspire them and provide them with a sense of hope about next steps for, um, themselves and their own, like, daily habits they can make, um, to try to become more sustainable or make, you know, smarter, local, more local choices.

I'm personally, like, trying to figure out a way to balance that, uh, those two sides, and I haven't quite figured that one out yet, but, um, It's a challenging, it's a challenging space to be sitting in. 

[00:08:39] Naomi Ward: Challenging? What's, what's the most challenging thing, Rose? I think, 

[00:08:44] Rose Scavotto: um, the reality of, like, sustainability education, um, can be very, doom and gloom and very depressing to the point where it seems like such a huge problem that, uh, people just freeze because they think it's too large of a problem to make.

Yeah, like what can one person do if it's a whole global problem? Um, and so that causes like a freeze response. Yes, you're just one person, but you can make a big difference if every single person makes small choices throughout their day, like how are you, Getting to and from work. Are you taking the bus?

Are you taking public transportation? You're walking or you're biking? Where are you buying your food? Are you buying food that are from local places? Are you, you know, purchasing from local stores, artists, etc. Going to a thrift store, and I try to break it down like that to students. So like, yes, it's an overwhelming problem, but if every single person is being conscious of these purchases, like I'm gonna buy fruit from That's local to Barcelona and is seasonal versus in the U.

S. It's crazy the discrepancy between Barcelona and the U. S. um, supermarkets. Like it's so seasonal here versus in the U. S. you can go any time of year to get anything you want and the quality is quite low. So thinking about like those aspects, um, As different choices you can make to make it a little bit more manageable.

[00:10:17] Naomi Ward: There's agency there, isn't there? In those small steps and something that comes across in the paper is that sustainability, it's not something you can add on to a school culture. It is the school culture. And I'm wondering, yeah, how, how is that? What does that look like across the school when sustainability, is at the heart of the culture, not only in curriculum, like you're saying with climate change, but also the sort of wellbeing of that ecosystem.

[00:10:44] Kenny Peavey: I'm in a very unique situation being at the green school because that was purpose built for that. Our campus is permaculture gardens and our buildings are all bamboo, which is a fast growing grass and a nice carbon sink. And we don't allow any single use plastic on campus. And all of our meals are locally sourced and grown, and it's built into the system, as you say.

It's not just part of the curriculum, but it's part of the ethos. But I think that's very unique, because when I've worked at other international schools, that was not the case. At another school I worked at, it took me years to get single use plastic water bottles banned, where they were selling them on campus.

And I was given all kinds of excuses why we could not do it. But at green school, it's just a given. You just don't bring it. You can't buy it and bring it to school. But I'm, I'm really well aware that that's very unique. Situation to be in. 

[00:11:37] Tatiana Ramirez: Yes, I think that schools need to be modeling the behaviors that are, you know, more sustainable and more long term thinking about reducing waste, appreciating food and not wasting it, for example, because if there is a group of people who care about this, And they're already, for example, in a club and, or a committee already organizing activities, and then they feel that their school is not aligned with that, then that is discouraging.

So, talking, what, what, what Rose was saying, it can be, make you feel depressed. So the role that the school leaders can play is to work together with the students. So for example, you do that, you do reviews of what is happening in the school. You need to understand what is the current situation. And then decide what you want to focus on and then it has to be a collaborative, um, work.

It doesn't work well if it's just from the school side or only from the student side. And that is, in my experience working with different schools, what, when you ask in, in the community, what is the most important motivator for them to do something is to see the impact that they're having, you know? So measuring it and communicating it.

Is really important and sometimes that means that maybe you need to focus on the first things that are the things that are easier to measure because it really will help with the motivation and it's not always easy to measure, um, changes in, in, in behavior and mindset, but it is easier to change to measure food waste, for example, or, uh, electricity use or water use.

[00:13:44] Matt Hall: Yeah, it's a really interesting insight and I was, I was going to nudge us onto mindset in a minute, but I want to, Rose was waving her hand first. So since you had something to add, 

[00:13:53] Rose Scavotto: Uh, yeah, I just wanted to say that I think, um, one thing we've done well at, at BFIS is, um, we've had this eco committee, which is part of like being an eco school.

And I think you could do this at any school, um, regardless of if you're an eco school or not, is having a representative. People from throughout the school leading that mission and meeting throughout the the school year. So it's been really cool to have You know, we've had the, uh, last year we were having the head of the school working with, like, fourth graders and ninth graders and tenth graders and teachers, like, all collaborating to develop a sustainability mission for the school.

And that's been really, really cool to, to empower the kiddos as well in leading that mission for the school. And I've had fourth graders coming up to me. You know, in the cafeteria this year being like, when are you meeting again? When are you meeting again? Like they're so excited about it. Um, it's really cool to give them that, uh, that leadership with helping the sustainability mission of the school for sure.

[00:14:53] Matt Hall: So I'm hearing some really practical examples of what you're doing in your schools. And, um, another thing that we've just touched upon that comes up for me is this It's how you start to shift mindsets and heartsets. And I think so often, or part of the root of our current challenges is this idea that is this separation of kind of nature and humanity, you know, Nora Bateson talks about this really well in the work that she does on kind of systemic thinking.

I love this quote, we are water, we are air, we grow, we bloom, we seed, we wilt, we die. There is a false separation between humanity and nature. And my observation is that there's a real opportunity for schools To reconnect that separation that seems to have been created for by various means over the last century.

How does that show up in your school or in the work that you do? Trying to reconnect kids with the sense that they are of the system rather than separate to it. 

[00:15:52] Kenny Peavey: I think you hit the nail on the head and that seems to be the issue is we see ourselves as separate or apart from the natural world when in fact we are tangled in the web of life ourselves and we're not separate but we are nature.

And that's been the crux of what I've been trying to do for the last, probably the last decade is just to get kids outdoors in touch with nature, getting enraptured with the beauty of nature so that they see themselves as part of the natural world and part of all the natural cycles. And that's why my basic philosophy is if you don't experience it, you won't know it, and if you don't know it, you won't love it.

And if you don't love it, you won't be motivated to take care of it. That's kind of the philosophy I've been working with for nature. Just getting kids outdoors. Jumping in rivers and lakes, climbing trees, flipping over logs, learning the science of it, the math, the beauty, the art and the literature and the history, but also just making that personal.

Connection with the natural world so that they know they belong to nature. They're not separate from it. 

[00:16:51] Matt Hall: Can I dig a bit deeper on that, Kenny? Cause I know some of our listeners will be thinking, yeah, sounds great. You're at the green school, you know, I'm in, I'm in Singapore and have you any idea the health and safety challenges or my parents, you know, I'm, I'm being the devil's advocate here on behalf of our listeners.

Um, is it as simple as we just take them out or is intentionality around that? 

[00:17:12] Kenny Peavey: No, I'm well versed in that. I used to run my own. Adventure education company in Southeast Asia. So I've had many Singaporean students that would come or not just Singaporean, but let's say Kuala Lumpur, any urban area. Uh, Bangkok, Manila, and they had no idea about natural world because they never really truly experienced it.

And one of the things that I do focus on is the child protection and the health and safety. And there, there's a really good network of organizations that do that now. And many schools in the region are now doing, not only outdoor education, but education outdoors. And the difference is, education outdoors is something that, Virtually any parent or teacher can do by taking their kids outside.

It doesn't have to be a specialty activity like rock climbing or rafting. It can just be reading a poem under a tree. But getting kids outdoors, just breathing fresher air, seeing the natural world, and actually not being afraid of it, overcoming biophobia. One of the telling things when I used to lead trips would be a lot of the students would be afraid to sit on the ground.

They didn't want to get their pants dirty. And then after a couple of days of just really being in contact with nature, they didn't really want to leave. They felt more comfortable. And it's really interesting when you see kids that are afraid to sit on the ground, cause that's definitely not how my generation or older generations grew up.

We were outside all the time, playing, climbing trees, kicking dirt, building tree houses and ports. And I think that's what's missing from a lot of these international urban schools, international school settings and big cities. Well developed urban areas, they're, they're lacking that contact. But I do know that a lot of schools are making efforts to take their kids on People.

walls trips, adventure trips, service learning trips. Uh, cultural immersion trips, getting their kids out of the confines of the classroom and out immersed in different communities and then natural areas. So yeah, that devil's advocate is real. I've seen it. 

[00:19:16] Matt Hall: You've seen it and you've challenged it and you've found a way through it by the sound of it.

[00:19:19] Kenny Peavey: Yeah. We just, you do what you can with what you've got. Where you're at. Yeah. That's, I can say like, Rose mentioned she's growing some rooftop gardens. I've seen similar things in Bangkok and, uh, schools growing rooftop gardens or hydroponics or doing things they can just to bring nature into the classroom.

[00:19:37] Rose Scavotto: Yeah. I've had kiddos coming to gardening club and they are like horrified that they have to touch soil. They're like, what, we have to get dirty and a garden club. And I'm like, yeah, yes, we're going to garden. And that is what this is. And we are going to put soil in the planters and plant seeds. I had kids who were just, you know, they are wearing their nice clothes.

They don't want to get their nice sneakers dirty. And then, you know, at the end of the six weeks or whatever it is, um, we were growing potatoes and, and we just had those like grow bags of potatoes on the roof and they were so stoked. And I was like, yeah, we're just going to. Lay a tarp out. We're going to dump it out.

And then they, these kids were like elbows deep in the dirt and the soil trying to find a potato. So we got there in the end, but it definitely takes, um, it takes a lot of exposure. Um, you know, here at BFIS, uh, there's a forest school that started, which is a UK based, um, Um, initially, and so that's been a really great way to, uh, to get the younger kiddos exposed to nature.

Um, they've been like pre K, kindergarten and first grade have been going out pretty consistently. And that's been really fantastic. And I wanted to mention, um, I don't know if you've heard of David Sobel's. essay beyond ecophobia. He details the different stages of childhood development, um, and how to, like Kenny said, um, if you fall in love with something, then you're going to want to, want to naturally preserve it and learn more about it.

And so he, He details these different stages of, like, for example, early childhood, ages 4 to 7. Um, we should build empathy with them in finding animal allies. So, different things you could do is, like, use stories and songs. They are trying to move like an animal. Um, and, you know, pretend and reenact the animals.

All the way to, you know, learning about the landscape in elementary school. Then we're thinking a little more locally in early adolescence, like great, uh, ages 12 to 15. Okay, what are we thinking about small action steps we can take within the neighborhood? Um, and making sure that students, you know, are able to learn about their environment and fall in love with it and take actions that's based off of their age readiness, which I think is a really important thing to, um, thing to consider.

[00:22:06] Tatiana Ramirez: It does really depend on the context of the school. Right. Depending on the region and the type of school, whether it's an urban school or suburban school. Um, so for example, in the school where my kids go and where I am part of the sustainability committee, we have quite a lot of space. There's a lot of, uh, green around because in general, generally in Germany, it's very green.

There are a lot, a lot of trees and, um, so they have, if you've seen in photos or in person, a lot of the playgrounds are very nature based. Wood and, and dirt and so that's the, the context. However, what the school has done to bring, to make that connection with nature is, um, to focus on biodiversity. One great project is the bee project and it's basically bringing bees to the school.

And have a, uh, an area where the bees are, they're making their honey and then connecting it to the community. And there was the, the company that, that brings the, the colony of bees also does training. And so the school opened, uh, an opportunity for teachers and students and parents to be, to take a beekeeping course.

And this was a way to also fundraise for. Getting equipment for the students to then go as part of their curriculum in different grades, mostly probably related to science, to go and meet the bees, to not be scared of the bees and to understand the role they play in, in nature and how they are benefiting us.

And then of, then of course they also have the honey when the, when the harvesting time comes. Then we have our school honey. So all of that, I think is, is really great to connect the dots, you know, um, within the, the, the school. 

[00:24:28] Kenny Peavey: We're answering Matt's question, which is. Okay, you're in an urban area. How do you do it?

I think roses, rooftop gardens or beekeeping strategies. I know that there are some schools doing similar things, composting on campus. I think the answer is do whatever you can that's going to connect the kids with the natural world. So thanks for sharing that, Tatiana. 

[00:24:49] Matt Hall: Yeah, and I'm enjoying the fact that listeners can't see this, but Everyone's bombarding our chat with brilliant links, which we'll be sure to share in the show notes.

[00:24:59] Naomi Ward: Yeah, I just, I just had a provocation and, um, I wonder, you know, because international education is quite elite. And we're talking about healthy ecosystems as beyond your schools. So I'm wondering how you see that, that ecosystem with schools, communities that maybe don't have access to some of the resources that you're talking about.

Where, where do you see that in your vision of the future? 

[00:25:34] Kenny Peavey: I think you're spot on Naomi. We definitely know that in international schools we're teaching, uh, future leaders because they tend to be. Wealthy and privileged kids coming from backgrounds of, um, embassy kids, oil kids, kids that have access to resources.

And we're often surrounded by local students and kids that don't have that. So, one of the things I know that I do and we do, I speak Indonesian, is we visit local schools. Last year we planted a garden at a local school. So, making service projects for our kids to learn from their kids. And the cool thing was when we showed up, they were teaching us all their fun games that we had no idea how to play and don't require any resources.

So it was kind of like just spontaneous team buildings and I didn't know how to play them myself and my daughter is half Indonesian. So she learned really quickly how to play it and she was teaching me and I was learning from the Indonesian schools nearby. Like you say, aren't as well resourced as we are.

I don't have as. Much access to the things that we have access to with our demographics. 

[00:26:42] Tatiana Ramirez: Yes. I, I, I agree. Um, Kenny, that the schools that have resources or the communities that have resources can maybe sponsor, um, something like a garden in another school. In fact, I remember, um, at Shanghai roots and shoots, there was an organic garden program already, um, 20 years ago.

And there it was sponsored by companies, but schools, local schools could apply for a scholarship or a grant, sorry, to get a, an organic garden, um, set up. Uh, I guess another option are community gardens, but in general, just to do that, that connection between a international school that, Reaches out to local schools that would benefit from them, or even to bring them into the school as well, you know, to be a hub for, for that community is another option.

[00:27:52] Kenny Peavey: Definitely. And I think what we've got to be really aware of is it is a two way street. We're not going to a local school to teach them. We're going there to learn and to have a mutual exchange of ideas and make sure that that's also a big part of what we're doing, because, you know, it's We did learn a lot from the local school when we visited.

[00:28:09] Rose Scavotto: I taught for two years at like a rural public school in Vermont in the U. S. and I think, uh, coming back to what Kenny and Tatiana have said around it all being relevant based off of your location and your resources, um, the school I was at, Was a very, um, in a very rural area where all the students got like free and reduced lunch.

Um, however, we had a lot of land nearby and we were in a pretty large, like, farming community. And so there was a teacher who had started composting. So we were composting around the school and there was a small school garden still. So I do think like it's cool and very important to share ideas across different schools.

Um, and being mindful that, you know, every school has its own opportunities and its own, um, skills that they can share with, with other kiddos. 

[00:29:00] Matt Hall: Thank you. And, and just as we, um, come to the end of our conversation today, I'd love just to hear from each of you about kind of the just one thing approach. You know, if you're a lot of the people who listen to our podcast, the leaders of international schools, if you could encourage the leader of an international school, just to do is maybe filling that sense that Rose talked about of overwhelm.

There's just so much, where do I begin? Where might we begin on this? 

[00:29:31] Rose Scavotto: Uh, I would say start small, and I think somebody said this earlier, if you start small, and, um, with small actions, and you can start seeing the progress of those actions, then that will motivate you, I think this is Tatiana saying this earlier, that will motivate you and the students to continue, uh, with those small actions, because every, every piece 

[00:29:54] Kenny Peavey: helps.

Definitely agree with that. And what I would say is get your kids out of the classroom. Start small with on campus outdoor learning and then to a nearby city park outdoor learning and graduate up to a multi day adventure camp. But get the kids out of the classroom, get them out immersed in the natural world, visit national park, do an overnight camp, do whatever you can to get out of the classroom.

That would be my one thing. 

[00:30:18] Tatiana Ramirez: In addition to that, I would say as a school leader, make sure that you listen to the community. And find, identify who are the people who are passionate about this. And let them do what they need to do, which means they'll get other people together and you'll start a collective action.

And as a leader, you at some points, it will be very useful to support that publicly and communicate to the community. But you don't have to be scared because it doesn't have to be the head of school who has to do everything. It's allowing the ones who are already really, really care to do it and, and open the spaces for that.

[00:31:05] Matt Hall: You heard it here first. You don't need to do everything. Start small, one step at a time. Thanks so much, all of you for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure.

[00:31:23] Naomi Ward: So we put these papers out into the world. Well, papers. This is the first paper we've put out into the world, um, on futures focused leadership. And. We shouldn't be surprised that the educators out there are a few steps ahead of our thinking in, in the classroom and the work that they're doing. And yeah, hearing that people are working in this way for, for years, for decades is a real source of hope.

And I'm wondering what you're taking away, Matt, from that conversation. 

[00:31:53] Matt Hall: Yeah, you're right. There is a sense in me of, duh. Um, yeah. And I think that same duh is, you know, I, I applied to, how'd you do it? Um, and, and there is, we're so good at getting in our own way and you can get really theoretical and philosophical about this stuff, but I love the fact that most of the answer, just, just get on with it, just get the kids outside, just open a garden, just get them handling tactile stuff, get earth in their hands, dirt under their fingernails, get them jumping into rivers.

Um, we don't, you don't need to write a, 20 page reconnect with nature strategy and present it to the board. You just need to get the kids out of the city and into the earth and then trust that process. Um, that's what I'm taking away from it. 

[00:32:46] Naomi Ward: Yeah. It was that learning to love nature, wasn't it? And that.

And dismantling that full separation, um, that, that is holding us back. And I love what Rose was saying as well about dismantling hierarchy. You know, if you can get the head of school working with grade four, and cause those are ecosystems that don't serve us either. Those sort of hierarchies, um, that, that hold us back.

So, um, Yeah, we wonder, we know that if you're listening to this, you are already doing great work in this, in this area. So please share what's the one thing that you're doing that you're, you're seeing is making waves and having impact in your school. Please let us know, because these conversations, you know, we're trying to provoke more thinking in you.

So, so let us know what you're doing. 

[00:33:31] Matt Hall: Yeah, couldn't agree more. Thanks, Naomi. 

[00:33:34] Naomi Ward: See you next time. 

[00:33:36] Matt Hall: You can download a free copy of our Paper Futures Focus Leadership for International Schools by signing up on our website making stuff better.com. And don't forget to like and follow principles so you don't miss an episode.

[00:33:51] Naomi Ward: You've been listening to Principled from msb. The podcast was produced by Emily Crosby Media with Music by Lucy Farrell, released on Hudson Records.