A Keynote Conversation: Fostering Brave Spaces and Curiosity with Claire Pedrick

Welcome to the fourth series of the MSB podcast, now titled Interbeing. This season focuses on how coaching values can support school communities by encouraging inward reflection and outward, generative relationships. Inspired by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s concept of 'inter-being', this series explores the interconnectedness of all things. We engage in conversations with coaches and educators, dissecting where coaching succeeds and where it doesn't. 

This episode, a bonus beginning to our new series, takes us back to our Re:Sourcing Yourself in Uncertain Times online conference in June. We hosted the inimitable Claire Pedrick, founder of 3D coaching and The Coaching Inn podcast, to have a “keynote conversation” with Naomi Ward, our Head of Learning.

It wasn’t at all rehearsed. Naomi and Claire opened the day – not with a speech and cue cards, but with a pause.

In a warm, unhurried conversation, they explored what it means to lead as the human you are, not just the role you play. Claire reminded us that presence often matters more than speed, and that resourcing ourselves is not indulgence but responsibility. Together, they modelled the quiet courage of listening well, noticing what keeps us steady, and letting go of doing more in favour of doing what matters. 

For school leaders holding so much for others, it was a gentle provocation: Who – or what – is holding you?

In this episode, Matt begins with a recitation of Mickey ScottBey Jones's poem about creating 'brave spaces' and discusses the importance of honesty, vulnerability, and simplicity in dialogues. Claire Pedrick and Naomi Ward then lead an in-depth discussion on fostering meaningful conversations in school environments.

00:00 Welcome to Inter Being: Introduction and New Name

02:02 Setting the Tone: Creating a Brave Space

04:29 Introducing Claire: A Journey of Identity and Roles

05:56 The Essence of Conversations: Simplicity and Vulnerability

09:56 Navigating Transformational Conversations

18:51 The Power of Vulnerability in Leadership

24:35 Practical Tips for Effective Communication

38:36 Resourcing and Support: Personal Insights

40:55 Conclusion: Reflecting on the Dialogue

You can find us on Linkedin at

Claire Pedrick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairepedrick/

Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/

Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Re:Sourcing Yourself in Uncertain Times: https://makingstuffbetter.com/resourcing-yourself-in-a-time-of-uncertainty/

Interbeing 2026:https://makingstuffbetter.com/interbeing/

Interbeing is made by Making Stuff Better https://makingstuffbetter.com/ and produced by Emily Crosby Media https://emilycrosbymedia.com/ and Kyra Kellawan

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Naomi Ward: Hello and welcome to series four of the MSB podcast and to our new name, inter being 

[00:00:13] Matt Hall: in our previous seasons, we've explored themes like belonging, organizational health, and the future of education. 

[00:00:19] Naomi Ward: This time, we are returning to the source of what we do. Coaching and how the values of coaching can support people in schools to look both inwards, reconnecting with their own humanity and outwards to cultivating generative relationships with care and curiosity.

[00:00:38] Matt Hall: You might be wondering about our new name. Inter being is a term coined by Zen Master Tick na Horn. It describes the deep interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. Nothing exists in isolation. Everything is in relationship, constantly influencing and being influenced by everything else. 

[00:00:57] Naomi Ward: This thread of relationship of inter being colors, everything we're exploring this season, we are in conversation with voices we are drawn to in the world of coaching and with educators in international schools who are walking with us, reflecting on what's changing for them and the questions they're living into.

Now, 

[00:01:15] Matt Hall: we're not here to present coaching as the answer to everything. Instead, we want to have honest, open conversations about where coaching works, where it doesn't, and what possibilities lie ahead. 

[00:01:26] Naomi Ward: And this season is just the beginning. Inter being is also the name of our annual in-person gathering, a space to explore these themes more deeply face-to-face.

You can find more about that in the show notes. 

[00:01:40] Matt Hall: As always, we are guided by curiosity and by the aliveness of the unfolding conversation between us. We ask everyone the same first and last question, but what happens in between is shaped by the people in the room, including you. 

[00:01:54] Naomi Ward: So thank you for being here.

[00:01:55] Matt Hall: Welcome to Inter Being,

but I just wanna start with the poem, um, which might just set the tone of what we're, what we're looking to, to do together and, and how we're going to be, because together we will create a brave space. 'cause there's no such thing as a safe space. We exist in the real world. We all carry scars and we all have caused wounds In this space, we seek to turn down the volume of the outside world.

We amplify voices that fight to be heard elsewhere. We call each other to more truth and love. We have the right to start somewhere and continue to grow. We have the responsibility to examine what we think we know will not be perfect. This space will not be perfect. It will not always be what we wish it to be, but it'll be our brave space together and we'll work on it side by side.

And that's a lovely poem, I think, um, by the poets. Um, uh, uh, Mickey Scott Bay Jones. That's what we're looking to do, uh, today, is be together, side by side, working out what we need, what we think, how we feel. We're definitely not looking for it to be perfect. Um, we are looking for it to be a little bit brave.

Um, it might not always be what you want it to be. It might not always be what you expect it to be. Um, but it will be, I love that line. It will be our brave space together. So there's an invitation here for you to come and switch off the distractions, um, move away from the busyness and the doing that is school life within reason and within realism.

And I'm not gonna do a big long introduction 'cause we see the people at MSB, not the title. And if you want to read about Claire, Google Claire Bedrick, you'll find everything you need to know. So I'm gonna stop speaking now and. Sorry. If you want to hear about Naomi Ward, Google, Naomi Ward as well, you'll hear everything you need to know.

Um, but yeah, love, love to invite you two forward to for a conversation. 

[00:04:26] Naomi Ward: You, Matt. Okay. Thank you so much Matt, for that gentle introduction. I certainly needed it to sort of land a little more in my, on my feet and in my body today. Um, and yeah, again, thank you Kyra. So here we are, Claire. We have half an hour for a conversation and um, I will, I will ask you to introduce yourself in this moment.

What feels relevant contextual for, for this moment. 

[00:05:00] Clare Pedrick: I love that in this moment as I introduce myself. The more I say, the more it will engage some of you and the more it'll disengage others. 'cause there's a sweet spot for how much power somebody has. How much humanity they have isn't there. And then we suddenly tip.

So in this moment, I'm a writer because that's what I'm doing this week. So in this moment, I'm a writer and I write about coaching and I write about power. Uh, and I write about partnership, and I write about conversations. I'm also a mom who's going on holiday with her adult children very shortly, and inside I'm a teacher.

I haven't been teaching in a classroom, in a school for a long time, 40 years. Uh, but I'm still a teacher in my soul, I think. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:55] Naomi Ward: Thank you. Um, and I wonder as you. Say that, and I hear you're in, you're in this sort of creative, creative space at the moment. What are your hopes for this conversation that we're, we're about to have?

Well, I know, 

[00:06:15] Clare Pedrick: I'm confident. I hope, uh, I hope that this is a generative conversation for everybody. I hope that it's a way of all of us thinking about how we show up in conversations. Uh, and as it's with you, Naomi, I have a knowing that by the end of this conversation, I'll know something that I didn't know before that will be useful to me later in the day.

And you've already offered me something, um, beautifully, which is already a massive takeaway. When you shared a poem with me before we started. 

[00:06:47] Naomi Ward: Yes. And um, I think it's something that's very resourcing and we, we are here, aren't we, to talk about this, this theme sort of resourcing in a time of uncertainty.

And we sort of have a subheading as well that we landed on, which is how you lead is what you teach coaching as a way of being and, and there's something about how you are is, is. It is what you teach. It's the culture you create around you. So that's where we're heading, but we don't really know where we're heading either.

Indeed, which, which I find a lot more fun and, and energizing than if, if we had slides or, or an agenda. But, um, maybe I will share those words that I shared with you, Claire. Yeah. This is my intention and, and, um, hopes, and it's in the words of Ocean Wong, the poet. And, um, they write, I want to take off the shoes of my voice so that I can enter a place with care so that I can do the work I need to do.

So the invitation is for us to take off the shoes of our voices, and that to me, what, what do you, what do you hear in that when, um, 

[00:08:05] Clare Pedrick: right now there's something for me about, we only need to say as much as we need to say, and I would say that's true in the, in a, in a one-to-one with a student as much as it is in a coaching style conversation or a conversation with a colleague.

We only need to say as we, as much as we need to say, because the most wonderful thing for me about conversations is that, is that people pick and run with it

and you dropped and then you offered to me, and then I'm picking it up and I'm running with it for a while, and then at some point I'm gonna offer it back to you or you are gonna take it back. Both of which are, both of which are great, but. For me, one of the things around any conversation is that, is that it has a usefulness.

[00:08:58] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:00] Clare Pedrick: And then it doesn't have a usefulness anymore. And once we've gone past the, the peak of that, everything that happens after that is, is not very kind or useful or anything because it's too much. 

[00:09:17] Naomi Ward: Hmm. As you say that, I think that there's something here about, about time because we often hear there's, there's not time to be or slow down and have these kinds of conversations in, in schools, but there's something there in what you're saying about simplicity and.

That's enough. And I trust that you've taken what you need. And so there's, there's a kind of letting go of any sort of control in, in, in, in these conversations. 

[00:09:55] Clare Pedrick: Yeah, completely. And I think we should tell everybody, uh, this is, this is what it looks like. It's that we are modeling what we're talking about here.

[00:10:04] Naomi Ward: Mm. 

[00:10:04] Clare Pedrick: And uh, I had thought about one or two things on the back of an envelope, and this isn't any of those. And that's. And that's great and really important and really useful. Um, I've just discovered that I have a DHD, which won't surprise some of you, but actually that's been a hugely difficult revelation for me because even though I thought I did, now I know that I have, there's all sorts of stuff that, that, that is behind that.

But what I know is that for me as a neurodivergent person. Things tangle up after the, so I can listen to for the useful bit and then they get tangled up and then I get stuck and I then I can't remember and I can't process and all of those things except interestingly in coaching. So people I coach probably wouldn't ever imagine that that is how my brain works.

But people I work with and people I'm related to, again course. So that's interesting, isn't it? How we can hyperfocus in one place and not in another. But coming back to, to, to that, there's that, I think there's something about what's enough and what's too much. And I think that in, in conversation, in leadership conversations 

[00:11:22] Naomi Ward: mm-hmm.

[00:11:23] Clare Pedrick: Uh, in coaching conversations, in conversations with students, there's a moment and there's a moment where. When we let go, often something really extraordinary and transformational happens and the thing does its thing. Mm-hmm. And at that point, we have to stop because the thing doing its thing is much more important, much more powerful than anything I could say next.

But I do need to finish off my very lovely sentence and then the moment is gone. Hmm. So I think a principle, a principle for really powerful conversations is stop talking

when you see the moment and look for the moment. And what does the moment look like for you. It often looks like a movement in the eye.

Where somebody looks differently than they have been. So they might look away, ah, or they might make a small sound, or the sound of their talking starts to sound different. So what we'll often get is we'll get, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck, I'm stuck.

Obviously different words. But, but, but that can often be a sign of the moment. And I think that in coaching, in the space that I inhabit a lot of my time, I see lots of moments. 

[00:13:08] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:09] Clare Pedrick: And the people who were in the conversations didn't see them. And that might have been the most transformational conversation that that person has had for a long time.

If we miss the moment and we don't let the moment do the work, and we think that I, well, I'm the coach, I'm the head teacher, I'm the whatever I am, so I still have to keep doing my work. There's something about trusting, handing over the power of the conversation and letting the moment do its thing. 

[00:13:39] Naomi Ward: Mm hmm.

So many directions spinning off in this moment. What we love about your work at MSB is, is that it is, it is a call for simplicity and, and sort of simplifying yourself so that you are ready to be witness, because the potential for those moments is there. But if we don't pay attention to ourselves, we won't see them.

So. Well, how do we need to be in order to sort of see this transformation? 

[00:14:21] Clare Pedrick: I think we need to stay connected, and that means that we need to stay connected and not be connected while looking in our resource of very good and useful things I can do next. At which point I lose connection with the person.

So something that I've been working on this week, and is it right if I try it out here? You've had this first. I'd love to know if this makes sense. Oscar Trimboli talks about three positions in a dialogue. He said there's the speaker, the hearer, and the conversation, the dialogue. And that's true actually in any relationship we have.

There's me, there's you, and then there's what we're doing. Suddenly this week when I've been thinking about that, I've been thinking a lot about stepping into the conversation and how much we step in or don't step in, and how much the other person steps in. So I think for the conversations we have, some of you will be working with people who are really fully engaged and all in.

And some of you'll be working with people who, who are bit tentative and there's a danger if the conversation is this thing between us. I think that because the other person is tentative, I take a massive step in, but now I'm really big because I'm inhabiting nearly the whole of this thing That is the conversation.

And actually my role is to take a little step in to invite to see whether they'll take a little step in. So how we begin the dance, but is the conversation is a really, really interesting question. Brene Brown in Daring Greatly, which I happen to have here, uh, guess what I wrote about it this week, which is why it's just there.

But she talks about the, the arena, which comes from a speech of Theodore Roosevelt, and she said the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena. Whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, and who comes short again and again. And she said, this is vulnerability.

Everything I've learned from over a decade of research on vulnerability has taught me this exact lesson. Vulnerability is not knowing victory or defeats, understanding this necessity of both. It's engaging, it's being all in. Mm. So in conversations there's a question about how do we be all in, but how do we not be so much in that there's no in for the other person?

[00:16:57] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:58] Clare Pedrick: So she's stepping out, 

[00:17:00] Naomi Ward: just step in and now we're dancing like literally. Yeah. So that partnership and, and it's not a static thing, it's, it's like you say it's a dance. And, and, and in the background of all this is this idea of resourcing and. Resourcing and it's so resourcing these conversations.

And I love what you said about, you know, it keeps you going. That thing it, you, you move and until you might, um, need another, but this idea of, um, vulnerability, there's the writer Jason Reynolds, he's a, um. He writes for young adults and he came up with it. It's kind of an equation, I guess. And I thought you might like this 'cause I know you like small things that mean a lot.

And I think there's a conversation with Brene Brown here because he says that respect is intimacy, plus appreciation, plus humility. And I've been thinking about this word intimacy because if we begin conversations without that. Taking the shoes off our voice, you know, that intimacy. Then we are limited, I think.

And and yeah. I just wanna offer that to you and see what's, I've got my thing. 

[00:18:28] Clare Pedrick: Oh, thank you.

I think intimacy is really intimacy for me. Intimacy and vulnerability are inextricably linked. I think that we accidentally don't appear as vulnerable as we feel. 

[00:18:46] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:47] Clare Pedrick: When we are trying to look as though we know what we're doing. So I'm really happy now to say to everybody here, I've no idea what we're doing.

But I haven't always been happy to do that because sometimes control really helps us. I think vulnerability helps the people that we're, supports, the people that we are with. So there's something about being, not being in control, but also not being out of control. So there's a space, um, there's, there's a space between being in control and not being outta control, which is where this happens.

So I host a podcast for The Coaching Inn. As you know, Naomi and Timothy Clark came on the podcast and he wrote The Four Stages of Psychological Safety. What I love about the podcast is that people will say things much more simply and much more easily to digest in the podcast than they do in their books, which is, which is just amazing.

But he said that the person who's perceived to have the more power, most power. As a first mover obligation to be vulnerable, and that vulnerability creates intimacy, but it only creates intimacy when it's true and when it's vulnerable. So when we offer a pre-rehearsed piece of vulnerability, we are not being vulnerable.

We're offering a piece of pre-rehearsed vulnerable information, but that's not. That's not vulnerable, and therefore that's not going to create the, the intimacy. There's something about being both in it together. Mm. You know, if I, if I went to a a, a nudist beach. I was fully dressed and all buttoned up, and I was with somebody who realized that they had to take all their clothes off, and there's me all buttoned up.

That's a very, there isn't, sorry. That's probably a really bad example of intimacy. But anyway, I've started, so here we go. But there's something about the connection between us that brings the intimacy and the vulnerability. Mm-hmm. That. And, and that brings us to a really exciting place of not knowing. 

[00:21:05] Naomi Ward: Mm.

[00:21:06] Clare Pedrick: Which is beautifully connected. Like I hope, I think we are right now. 

[00:21:12] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:12] Clare Pedrick: Um, but we have to put a lot of things down to be able to do that.

[00:21:20] Naomi Ward: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you, as you say that, um, uh, sort of thoughts of. Percolating around what, what this looks and feels like in a school environment where, you know, we do have our hierarchy and, um, you know, I've certainly heard people say, if I show too much vulnerability, people won't trust me. I think, I think that's such a, that's, I think that's such a myth, but there's also cultural difference here about what vulnerability might look like.

So two things really. I'm, I'm wondering what this looks like in an environment where there's a hierarchy, and then secondly, I kind of wonder what's possible if, if the quality of conversations and these moments of transformation were moving people forwards. Um, so we, we've got this kind of. Context, and then we've got the possibility and, and I wonder how those are connected,

[00:22:24] Clare Pedrick: the context. I think there's something about Nadia Bolts Weber, who's an American theologian. She says, speak from your scars and not your wounds. So when we are being vulnerable, there's something about not. Being vulnerable with the open, raw one that's bleeding, but also not being so held back that there's no humanity.

We want to demonstrate that we're human too, and that might just be by saying, I get that. Mm. Or I get how that is for me without bringing any of our stuff in, but just enough to go. I get that. When people are having a conversation with us, that sounds like nobody in the world has ever experienced this, and I'm very worried about it.

[00:23:17] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:19] Clare Pedrick: So, so there's something about that. And there's something for the future, Naomi, which I, which really excites me. And that is when we work simply. Mm-hmm. People can copy what we do because we weren't doing anything special or secret. So if I say to you, which bit of that do we need to think about today?

And you, and you think, and you go, oh, it's this bit, then you'll go, that was a really good question. Also not difficult to remember. That person may be talking to somebody who's overwhelmed by something and then they'll say to them, which bit of that is useful to think about today because they can remember it.

So I think the potential for being able to have conversations where people feel seen and heard and felt, and have these moments where they get new insight. When we do it simply, which is what you train people to do at msb, other people will copy it. 

[00:24:25] Naomi Ward: Hmm. 

[00:24:26] Clare Pedrick: And that's where it becomes really exciting.

[00:24:33] Naomi Ward: Yeah. Re really exciting. And, and you said, you said something, uh, I think we've been, we've been talking a lot about beginnings, haven't we? Like how we move with each other, the questions we ask at the beginning. And I think for anyone here who's thinking, you know, how can we have more transformational resourcing conversations?

It's these, it's these small things. Like listening, really paying attention. I hear you. And then, and then which bit of that, 'cause that in itself is resourcing. If we're feeling overwhelmed for someone to say, well together here now. So I guess that's connected to what can we do to transform conversations here.

It's small things. 

[00:25:18] Clare Pedrick: Yeah. And actually right now, neither you or I are in news reader position. No, no, you taught me that. And so what we're talking about is, is not inhabiting a power position in the screen in the same way as we can choose not to inhabit a power position in the, in, in conversations in schools if it's not a conversation where the power is needed.

[00:25:48] Naomi Ward: Hmm. 

[00:25:49] Clare Pedrick: So sometimes in school you are going to have a conversation where your. You need to inhabit the power that comes with your role because of the reason that you're having that conversation. But there are others where you don't, and I, I would say that the art of that is to do it differently because then you can have a different kind of conversation.

So that might be walking or sitting on the window sill or looking out the window, or it could be a lot of things, but there's something about mixing it up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that it's. It shakes up the power dynamics enough for us to be able to have a different kind of conversation. 

[00:26:27] Naomi Ward: Yeah. And, and even, even the simplest thing.

So what would you like to talk about in the time we have? Yeah. We, we often don't begin like that. We say we, we begin with a piece of paper and say, here's here's the list of things we have to do. 

[00:26:40] Clare Pedrick: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And what we could do is we can look at the list and say, so looking at the list. Which is the bit in the list that we really need to focus on first.

[00:26:52] Naomi Ward: Mm. 

[00:26:53] Clare Pedrick: Yeah. Because it might be the thing that the person's most anxious about. It could be anything. 

[00:27:01] Naomi Ward: Mm. 

[00:27:01] Clare Pedrick: And and I think we have to be careful. One of my colleagues is also neurodivergent, and yesterday I said to him, so we'll have a conversation about that in a couple of weeks. And he went, can I just check in?

It's that a management kind of conversation. I went, no, you are gonna tell me the wonderful thing that you've created in the two weeks in between today and next in two weeks time. He said, oh, so it's an information sharing thing. And I went, yeah, but if I, if we hadn't clarified that he was going to worry for the next two weeks that I was going to fire him, because I'd used a word that for him, triggers him into, this is a different kind of conversation that I don't want to have.

So there's something about, there's something about really agreeing together and clarifying and doing stuff so that people don't get freaked inside and that they can bring their best selves to this conversation that we're gonna have together and make it a dialogue. Because otherwise what happens is it becomes data transfer.

I give you my data and you give me yours, and it's like we're avoiding the conversation. One of us is throwing it over and the other one is throwing it back. 

[00:28:13] Naomi Ward: I've got this, I've got this image of a sort of big fence between us, and we're not even seeing each other. We're just, uh, throwing, throwing the, the stuff that needs to be done.

So, so I wonder, I wonder where we are now. 

[00:28:28] Clare Pedrick: What a very good question. I think if it's okay, we'll ask everyone else. Yeah, where are we? What insights have you had, if you can put 'em in chat, what insights have you had so far? And what question, what is, is there a question that leaves you with, 

[00:28:48] Naomi Ward: oh, so Duncan, respect Plus is intimacy plus vulnerability plus appreciation.

Um,

[00:29:00] Clare Pedrick: yeah. See the people trust the people. How can we gently open conversations, even difficult ones 

[00:29:08] Naomi Ward: that comes up a lot in our spaces of, um, you know, this idea of difficult conversations, challenging conversations. Yeah. 

[00:29:20] Clare Pedrick: That's such a great question, isn't it? 'cause it's, it makes me think of, you know, we all have different preferences.

So if something difficult needs to be said, 'cause that's often what we mean by difficult conversations. Something difficult is going to be received or delivered. And some of us have a preference to slowly and gently ease into it. And some of us have a preference to go, boom. Now what are we going to do?

So I think there's something about asking people, what's the best way for us to do this today? Because we could name the thing that we know is difficult first, and then we could work out what to do with it. Or we could gently get to the point. 'cause sometimes as we are gently getting to the point, they know what we, they know what's going to be said and actually we're taking that slow thing for ourselves.

Whereas saying, this is the, this is the situation. What do we need to do about it can get us back into collaboration really quickly. 

[00:30:25] Naomi Ward: Yeah. So that, so that's a conversation where there is power, more power, but I, I love the potential for collaboration. Yeah. And, and I know you know Catherine Manning's book, listen, which I know was subjective.

A book club in our community, in a community this week talks about tender, the tenderness of those conversations. Such a, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:51] Clare Pedrick: So, let me give a school example. 'cause I've just gone flushing back into a place where I was working with teachers and one of them told a really good story of how they'd manage difficult conversations.

So the, the issue was that the teacher of, I think five or six year olds, the teacher and the children in the class were not thriving. And it had been noticed that the teacher had their back to the children a lot of the time, I mean a lot of the time. And so that the diagnosis was that the teacher wasn't capable of engaging the class.

But the real observable data was that the teacher had their back to the children so much of the time that the, that they, that they, they were actually in, in the language that we're speaking now, they had lost connection with each other. Mm-hmm. So we could go in, I'm the head teacher. I go in and I go, how do you think it's going?

She goes, oh, whatever. It's, oh, I think it's going great. Thanks. Or I could say, I've noticed. Through the window that you often have your back to the children, and I'm wondering what impact that has and what can we do here to talk about it that will help you think about doing this thing, you know, in a way that's even better for you and for the kids, whatever it's, but there's something about, yeah.

Do you, do you drip, drip, drip, drip. 

[00:32:30] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:31] Clare Pedrick: Drop. 

[00:32:32] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:33] Clare Pedrick: Or you do, you drop and then go. So now we've, now we know that what do we need to do? But the art of the dropping is to UI think, is to use real observable data and not diagnosing because real observable data is real observable data. So you don't seem to be getting on very well is diagnosis.

I observe that you often have your back to the children is real observable. So how we do that, I think is a really useful thing. 

[00:33:05] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. Thank you. And I hope, I hope to people who are thinking about that, that was, that was useful. Do let us know. Kyra, if there's anything that you see that's coming up that feels important, please 

[00:33:17] Kyra Kellawan: Yeah.

Let us 

[00:33:18] Naomi Ward: know. 

[00:33:18] Kyra Kellawan: I, I would love to highlight a couple of questions that, that I, I, I thought were really resonant and, um. There's a strong kind of like, okay, but what happens if, what do I do if, um, so one was how would you suggest leaders should embody this when it's not an in-person meeting? Um, and you know, if it's an online meeting or if it's just a calendar invite that has a lot of emotion or feels charged, what, what then?

And there was a similar reflection later on about what happens when the conversation turns to complaint. How do you turn it around? The 

[00:33:52] Clare Pedrick: calendar invite one is in I, I think there's something about ask them. Thanks for putting this in my calendar. Be just, just can you gimme the headline of what, what this is, you know, what we need to do in this conversation or what you are hoping to get out of this conversation.

So just a headline gives you some sense of, because there's something about tower here, isn't there? As you, as I read what you said, Zoe, there's also some, there's something about is this power with, have they got more power than me? Have they got less power than me? And it's a bit of a kind of power not knowing thing.

So I think just to ask. Not, is there an agenda for this meeting, but can just gimme the headlines of what we, what what we're hoping, what this, this is for can be a really useful thing. Um, I do all my work online now, apart from one person who comes and sits in that chair. Um, and I think you can create the environment and the climate to have this conversation between us.

And I would say keep out of. TV presenter space, which is when we're in the middle and we're very big. And really think about how you can use the space so we can make the space bigger. So now we've got Naomi and I've got lots of space between us. We can make the space smaller, we can do all sorts of things that we can do in person that really change the dynamics.

Sometimes if it's difficult, I might say to the person that I'm talking to, sounds like we need to have a bit of space here so that we can look at it differently. And now we've got the speaker, the hearer, and the conversation much more physically in front of us, and we can start looking at the difficult stuff between us rather than me telling Naomi difficult stuff about her.

[00:35:53] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. I like this idea of the work. You know, I think, I think we can feel like, oh, the attention is on us. You know, I'm under threat, you know, I'm a little hijacked, you know, depending on all kinds of unspoken dynamics. But if we shift the focus to what's the work we need to do? Can we stand side by side and look at what this is then?

Then there's that, there's that, and, and we were, we were doing some. Work this week and we were asking what belonging is, and, and someone just said it, oh, it's, it's just moving from I to us. And, and that might just be a step and, and sitting side by side rather than opposite across a desk. And I just wanna shout out to Marika whose face I can see, who, um, has space in her office.

That's very clearly. A workspace and then a space with two purple comfortable chairs surrounded by artwork plants. Very different. So something about space and environment as well. 

[00:37:05] Clare Pedrick: And the more we can get the conversation here 

[00:37:08] Naomi Ward: mm-hmm. 

[00:37:10] Clare Pedrick: The easier it is to have. I use space a lot and in fact that's been my kind of insight in my writing this week, that if any of you have trained in coaching and learned about Stoker, Stoker, which is some questions that we use at the beginning of a conversation, one of which is, which bit of that shall we talk about today?

It feels like it's a linear beginning to a conversation, but actually it's a spiral. So we, we go round. We work at what we're doing in an iterative way until we get to what is really the work that we need to do. But that starts with a circle stepping into the circle together, stepping into the conversation together, and then just gently going down like an ice cream cone.

Our techie Jack is a, is a 3D artist with a 3D printer, and he's going to make me a. Thing so that I can talk about it in a more articulate way than this, but that's what we're doing. But it's about, it's, it starts with stepping into the circle. 

[00:38:22] Naomi Ward: Mm. 

[00:38:23] Clare Pedrick: Stepping into the dialogue and choosing how far on, not far we go in.

I wonder, 

[00:38:31] Naomi Ward: I wonder if I can ask one more question, which is. I wonder what's resourcing you, Claire, as you're in your writing and in this world we live in. What's the main thing that's resourcing you? Uh, 

[00:38:48] Clare Pedrick: I walk, which I now understand. I walk for more reasons than I ever thought I walked before. So I walk to think and I walk to process and I walk to decompress.

So I walk five miles a day because see how much I need to do all of the above. So I will go for a walk in a minute. Um, yeah, so I walk five miles a day, but I also know who's behind me. That's what resources me. I know who my tribe is and I know who's resourcing me at any particular. For any particular thing.

So I have a, I have a coaching friend, friend, friend who lives locally and, and what resources me is that we will suddenly do breakfast and that resources me hugely. I think when we feel under-resourced, we might often describe that as I feel like nobody's got my back. So I think quite a lot about who's got my back because I want to feel them here.

[00:39:59] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. Then you can, then there's something about leaning into that isn't there, and just being held and, yeah. Well, thank, thank you so much, Claire. You, you've offered us so much more than you know, in the rooms that we work in and. What we appreciate in you is just this iteration. You know, you are always thinking like it's gone from this to a spiral.

And I heard this phrase of, um, human signposts and how that resources me, you know, the ocean Wangs or the, the, the people in the world who just. You need to see as your guides beside you, in front of you, behind you, and you're, you are absolutely one for us. So we're, we're, we're so grateful we didn't know where we were gonna be, but this is where we ended up.

So we hope it was useful. Everyone. 

[00:40:54] Matt Hall: Thanks for listening. If something in this conversation stirred something in you, a thought, a feeling, a question, we'd love to hear about it. You can find ways to connect with us and more about the inter being gathering in the show notes. This podcast is part of a wider dialogue, one that unfolds between us, our guests, and you.

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