Making teaching a more family-friendly career for parents: Emma Sheppard of the MTPT Project

In the fourth series of the MSB podcast, now rebranded as 'Interbeing', the focus returns to coaching and its values in supporting both self-reflection and cultivating generative relationships within educational environments. The term 'inter being,' coined by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, frames this season’s exploration of interconnectedness. 

Hosts Matt and Naomi introduce guest Emma Sheppard, a passionate advocate for family-friendly schools, to discuss the impact of coaching on personal growth and professional development. Emma shares her experiences with coaching, her transition into motherhood, and founding the Maternity Teacher Paternity Teacher (MTPT) Project. The episode delves into the challenges and opportunities for educational institutions to support their staff as multifaceted human beings, emphasizing the importance of listening, presence, and personal fulfillment in fostering a positive and thriving school environment.

00:00 Welcome to Series Four: Exploring Interbeing

02:03 Introducing Emma Shepherd: Advocate for Family Friendly Schools

03:18 The Power of Coaching: Transforming Challenges into Opportunities

08:20 Emma's Journey: From Hopelessness to Empowerment

16:39 Balancing Motherhood and Career: The MTPT Project

26:01 The Role of Coaching in Supporting Parents

30:46 Creating Family Friendly Work Environments

40:59 Concluding Thoughts: The Human Experience in Education

Emma Sheppard founded The Maternity Teacher Paternity Teacher (MTPT) Project, the UK's charity for parent-teachers, whilst on maternity leave with her son in 2016. Having trained through Teach First as an English teacher in 2010, she continued to teach in the British International School, Ho Chi Minh, acting as Head of House, before returning to the UK as Lead Practitioner at an academy in South London. Here, she held responsibility for ITT provision, teaching and learning, and line managed the EAL department. In 2020, Emma began training as a coach with The Coaching Academy, and then relocated to the south of France with her family in 2021 to coach and run The MTPT Project full time.

The MTPT Project is the UK's charity for parent-teachers. From humble beginnings as a blog and a Twitter handle, inspiring, empowering and connecting teachers choosing to complete personal and professional development whilst on parental leave, The MTPT Project has grown into the voice of parent-teachers in the UK.

The charity runs training and networking events, provides 1:1 and group coaching to teachers on leave, and is the only organisation completing research into women aged 30-39 - the largest demographic to leave teaching every year. Since 2016, The MTPT Project has worked to tackle the motherhood penalty in education, to transform education into a sustainable and "life-friendly" career choice for all.

Find out more about MTPT at https://www.mtpt.org.uk/

You can find us on Linkedin at

Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/

Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Interbeing is made by Making Stuff Better https://makingstuffbetter.com/ and produced by Emily Crosby Media https://emilycrosbymedia.com/

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Naomi Ward: Hello and welcome to series four of the MSB podcast and to our new name, inter being 

[00:00:13] Matt Hall: in our previous seasons, we've explored themes like belonging, organizational health, and the future of education. 

[00:00:18] Naomi Ward: This time, we are returning to the source of what we do. Coaching and how the values of coaching can support people in schools to look both inwards, reconnecting with their own humanity and outwards to cultivating generative relationships with care and curiosity.

[00:00:38] Matt Hall: You might be wondering about our new name, inter being is a term coined by Zen Master tick Horn. It describes the deep interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. Nothing exists in isolation. Everything is in relationship constantly influencing and being influenced by everything else. 

[00:00:57] Naomi Ward: This thread of relationship of inter being colors, everything we're exploring this season, we are in conversation with voices we are drawn to in the world of coaching and with educators in international schools who are walking with us, reflecting on what's changing for them and the questions they're living into now.

[00:01:15] Matt Hall: We're not here to present coaching as the answer to everything. Instead, we want to have honest, open conversations about where coaching works, where it doesn't, and what possibilities lie ahead. 

[00:01:26] Naomi Ward: And this season is just the beginning into being is also the name of our annual in-person gathering, a space to explore these themes more deeply face-to-face.

You can find more about that in the show notes. 

[00:01:40] Matt Hall: As always, we are guided by curiosity and by the aliveness of the unfolding conversation between us. We ask everyone the same first and last question, but what happens in between is shaped by the people in the room, including you. 

[00:01:53] Naomi Ward: So thank you for being here.

[00:01:55] Matt Hall: Welcome to Into Being.

Another episode is upon us, and I'm really looking forward to this one, and particularly because it's so related to a big part of my life, which is parenting. Yeah. Tell us, tell us who we're talking to today, Naomi. 

[00:02:16] Naomi Ward: So we're welcoming Emma Sheppard to the podcast. Who is? A passionate, purposeful advocate for family friendly schools, um, in, in many contexts, whether it's going on parental leave and.

How you navigate that transition, the change in your values in your role, or whether it's how a school, um, creates an environment where parents feel really heard. She has carved out a wonderful, um, body of work on behalf of, of, of parent teachers. So I wish she'd been around when I was going through this phase of my life.

But we're delighted to bring her wisdom to this audience, um, and we hope you enjoy it. 

[00:03:05] Matt Hall: Great. Let's get stuck in. 

[00:03:08] Naomi Ward: Hi Emma. Welcome to the conversation. It's really exciting to have you here and explore some themes around coaching and the work you do this season. We're starting with this question and take it wherever you you'd like, but for you today in the here and now.

What does it mean to be human? 

[00:03:31] Emma Sheppard: Oh gosh, what a question to start with. That's enormous, isn't it? Um, but actually we were sort of having our, our prerecording conversations. One thing that really just, um, jumped up for me when we've talked about that, that word being human, was this concept of, I know that connection and presence are really maybe overused terms now, sort of being present in the moment, being present with your children, having connection with people.

Actually, I think, uh, increasingly in a world where we, we can be separate, we can be isolated, um, that sense of connection, we can be distracted. That sense of presence, um, I think is, is something that we have to really get back to. Um, and when we are in those moments, whether it's connection with other people, whether its connection with nature, whether it's, um, being able to contextualize ourselves as a, a small spec in a much wider infrastructure of the planet that we're living on.

Being present and really feeling those moments of joy or empathy or compassion with, with people that we love or respect or see as humans alongside us or within community with us. I think those are the really powerful moments where you think you know all of that other stuff. Uh, have they practiced their piano?

Have we got a meal plan, uh, for the week? Um, am I, you know, at the top of my game, am I up to date with x? Am I doing the right thing? Am I wearing the right clothes? You know, what products am I using? All of that other stuff is just white noise. When you have those moments of connection and presence with the people in the world around you.

[00:05:14] Matt Hall: I'll meant that I, um, I've just spent the weekend at the do lectures in, in West Wales with, um, a guy called David Hyatt and, uh, do lectures is a series of talks. And anyway, Dave David's an entrepreneur and his, his catchphrase, which he saw written on the side of a skateboarding cardigan once, which is a kind of misquote of a, of a song lyric, which, um, from somewhere, um, is this, it's, these are the days they always were.

And I think it really captures what you've just said as a way of saying we're only here. We've only ever been here. These are the days. They always were just this kind of reminder just to be in the present. It's only now it's only you. It's only us. 

[00:05:58] Emma Sheppard: Then the irony though, Matt, around that, isn't it, is that it's so much easier to be in the present when a a of yourself, I find has, has planned out or mapped out or, you know, anticipated or prepared for the future so that the present doesn't mean living chaotically or spontaneously or without framework or structure, particularly if you're living within a unit as, as I do in terms of my family and my organizational teams and, and that sort of thing.

Being able to, the reason we can release ourselves to the moment and enjoy this right now is because we know that this is what we're supposed to be doing right here, right now. But actually the irony is that that takes planning previously to give that sense of control and comfort and um, sort of placement as it, as it were.

So, yeah, I'm conscious of the sort of simultaneously of being in the present moment, but. It takes a lot of groundwork to create a, a structure that enables presence to happen rather than chaos. 

[00:07:04] Naomi Ward: Yeah. And that word chaos for some reason has taken me to family life and so many elements and that constant change that we are in and.

I wonder whether that's ever possible to do enough preparation to sort of curate that present moment. It's almost like we have to find it within the chaos and, and I wonder, you know, as we come home really in this season to the work we do in coaching, and I know you're a coach and I know you're a huge advocate of coaching in this sort of family space.

What was your way into that? What have been some of the moments, perhaps when you've been coached, where you've grown or transformed or found something? 

[00:07:58] Emma Sheppard: And actually, I think coaching provides that space within the, within the chaos to plan and anticipate. And, you know, you can't, you can't control and you can't plan.

And actually that. What we want, we wanna be able to respond and flexibly to, to the present moment and what's happening and, you know, not be in a situation where we say, well, this, this wasn't part of plan, so we're not doing it if it's the right thing in that moment to be doing. Um, but actually my first experience with coaching was when I was training to be a teacher in an incredibly challenging, incredibly challenging environment where chaos did rule at because of that, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't fun, it was unsafe, it was psychologically unsafe.

It was physically unsafe sometimes for the children and the teachers, and we weren't. Doing the right thing. We weren't enjoying education. We weren't enjoying that learning space. There wasn't a sense of worth, um, attached to the children or, or the student or the teachers because there was no plan and there was no space for the clarity to create or see the vision and see the plan.

And actually, one of my first experiences with coaching was when somebody who was supporting me with my training journey asked me, you know, blue sky thinking, what would happen right now if you. If make it happen, and I remember that being an incredibly, almost painful transition. I was in such a place of hopelessness

expectations. I been

experienced teacher year, 23-year-old, and had been teaching for a year just over. I felt desperate. Felt like there was no, there were no options, there was no solutions. And actually, myself, another teacher and 30 children were, were suffering as a result of a result of this. And I felt like I couldn't do anything about it.

So real sense of failure on my behalf. And when she asked this blue. Blue sky thinking question. Um, lady's name was Rie. Martha Lane. If she up listening to this podcast, I was almost angry with her. I was really angry. You know, you, you, how, how dare you ask such a ridiculous question when the reality is so challenging.

It's, it's offensive to me that you would, you know, blue sky thinking, what does that even mean? Because I was such in such a sort of restricted place then both of my thinking and with and with the framework around me. And so my response was, you know what? Yeah, sure if you wanna go, you know, really angry, sort of resentful response and almost threw this vision back in her face to show her how ridiculous it was, how stupid the question was.

And can you imagine, well if this is the vision, this is the blue sky thinking, then this is what it would look like. And can't you just hear how impossible that is? But obviously the power of coaching, as I started to describe this vision, um, and say, yeah, you, you know, you, you want the vision, this would happen and this would happen.

Yeah. Like that's gonna happen. And then started to talk myself into this vision statement, you know, and actually that would be really exciting. They would be here and this would be happening around them. And my job would just be to this, and we would just need to get to the point where they would, um, be resilient and independent and be able to sort of, uh, teach themselves and work as teams.

And, and so the space wouldn't matter and the size of the class wouldn't matter, and the lack of resources wouldn't. Matter, um, because we'd be developing these and it suddenly became this really, really exciting thing that I got completely carried away with sort of, you know, pause for breath at the end, exhausted, and was like, oh my gosh, you know, this, this could really happen.

This could work. These children could actually, we could transform this awful moment into something incredible for these young people. Despite all the restrictions and despite all the, the barriers and, and the hardship that we're experience with experiencing, and we did it, and it, it worked out. And they, not only did they get fantastic grades this year, 11, they also just grew hugely from this.

Passive resentful, very low self-worth, uh, group of young people to a group of young people who were autonomous over their own learning in charge of their own destinies, and knew that they had the power within themselves to direct their own futures. Um, so I think that's, that was my first experience of coaching.

A really good example of where, you know, the coaching space can create the vision and the plan. Present in that moment, have that human connection and actually lead to growth as human beings, not just this chaotic, robotic functioning machine that we sometimes put people into, um, in organizations. 

[00:12:20] Matt Hall: So what was the change in you?

[00:12:21] Emma Sheppard: It's having somebody give the space to talk something out loud and dare to believe, and somebody who's just sat there and listened to. The rainbow naivety hope that, I think the world can beat outta us sometimes because it's not growing up, it's not realistic, it's not practical, it's not, you know, it's not achievable, it's not sensible.

Um, and actually we lose I think a lot of that vision and that creativity of thinking and, and express them and belief and hope secondary school age. I think that, that that's the sort of powerful moment where we stop. We shut, we shut that child away. And actually sometimes what's really powerful as adults is if we can tap back into that creativity that we had when we were children.

We actually, with grownups, we have the resources to make, make these beautiful things happen. And 

[00:13:16] Matt Hall: I sense that was the beginning of a change for you personally. I'm curious about the rest of that story. 

[00:13:22] Emma Sheppard: Yeah, I mean, I think it wasn't, it wasn't plain sailing from there, but I,

in. Knowing that I knew what I was doing and knowing that if my gut feeling was something to work with, and if it didn't feel right then it probably wasn't right. And actually I had the power to do something about it as long as somebody could just mark out that space to enable me to think clearly, um, and, and, and talk things loud and, and actually to this day, whether it's my personal life or my professional life, sometimes I just like, I just need 10 minutes to sit down piece paper and think clearly, or I just need to have somebody.

Space so that I can speak this out loud and clarify this to myself before going on further, um, to get through the jumble. 

[00:14:08] Naomi Ward: I love the simplicity of that 10 minutes to think as, as, as transformation, and I wonder what might have been lost or the cost if you hadn't had that question 

[00:14:25] Emma Sheppard: at that time. Mm-hmm. We would've just carried on as we had been before, and I would've followed instructions from people who didn't have the young people's.

No, they didn't. I gonna try, give them benefit. They didn't have the young people's best interests heart. They didn't have a healthy understanding of education. And we would've just carried on. And those children would've been churned out and got Cs and Bs when they were, could have got A's and a Stars.

But even that. You know, even if they'd got their, they wouldn't have, it wouldn't have been a happy a, you know, it would've been a beautiful play. The game, go through the process rather than excited. Enjoyable. Literature is interesting. Books are fun. I really think Macbeth is quite shady. You know, that real, you know, human understanding of the stories that we read and that pleasure of the stories that we read.

And also a connection with me as, as that teacher and as adult. And me seeing them not just as the stressful symbol of are they gonna get a grade, but actually this kid really likes film. This kid is really practical and is, is really insecure about his AC academic abilities. This young lady really needs a better sense of self that's not attached to her body image and these young boys.

I felt like a, felt sort of a, a mass together, but actually have five separate individuals that don't always agree with each other and have independent thought processes. You know, so actually getting to know them as human beings rather than this sort of blank wall of class or students that sitting, sitting in front of me.

Just 

[00:15:58] Naomi Ward: people I had to teach, get.

Tell a story about the impact that coaching had, the ripple effect of coaching on that class. And I wonder to maybe accelerate forwards to this passion that you have around, um, family friendly schools and teacher parents. Was there another moment where you felt there's something here? That needs to change.

Change that I can change, change again with a 

[00:16:38] Emma Sheppard: coach. Um, he had been my coach prior to, to having, and remember when I told him I pregnant and I was saying, you know, I'm practitioner. I love my job. I'm making a real difference in the schools that I'm working in. I'm pregnant and I'm worried that that's gonna be, you know, that that's gonna be the end of it, you know, and, and everybody says that.

Career sacrifice having a baby. This is back in 16. I'm sure conversations like this still happen. Unfortunately they're not true, but um, they do still happen. And I remember my coach, even in himself, he was a great coach, but you could see him resisting the urge to be like, you need to look after yourself and your baby, and your baby's gonna be your first property.

When I was so passionate about my career, I went back to him, continued coaching once I was on maternity leave. I remember describing, you know, what I wanted from, from my life and my career, and I was like, you know, I'm, I know I'm gonna be good at this motherhood thing, not a worry me moments doubt, obviously,

like I'd chosen to have children because I knew I was gonna be good there. My frustration, I remember saying to him, people don't understand I'm a rainbow. I'm a and and people don't wanna accept that. And remember having this sort of, you know, real sort of rocket launch of being like, I'm gonna do exactly what I wanna do and show everybody that I can do it, and I'm not going to let their limited thinking around motherhood or around career or around working, working parents.

I'm not gonna let that restrict or limit me anyway, because. They just don't realize that I'm a rainbow, I'm a firework. They think that it's not possible, but they don't, they just haven't seen it yet. And thankfully since that point, a lot of people have realized I'm a rainbow and a firework. Um, and, and that has sort of, what do you mean by that?

Mo? I'm very conscious that I can do and have visions for and can keep working in a way that. Other people can't or don't wanna necessarily if it's something that's interesting to me. So if there's something that's not interesting to me, I avoid it like the plague. Um, but if I have decided that I'm gonna do something, you know, people say that's really hard work.

That's impossible. That's a challenge that will take a long time. I know I have the sticking power and I know I have the enthusiasm and the energy and the vision and the creative thinking to make something a reality if I have decided that it's a good idea. And that plays out in my professional life and my personal life.

And actually it's a, it's a bit of a step in terms of trying to live with humility versus being very frank and open about being quite a high capacity rainbow person. Sparkly. 

[00:19:45] Matt Hall: So was the issue that in that moment. You were not being seen as a rainbow. You were just, you are off to be a mum. That's it. One box.

Yeah. One category, one function. And 

[00:19:55] Emma Sheppard: unfortunately it's a gendered conversation and, and a lot of the work that we do is about sort of the quality of parenting and making sure that both parents or parents are, are part conversation. But unfortunately there are very gendered concepts around what it is to be a mother in particular.

And it's very reductive. Very reductive. Um. I'm a multifaceted human being that has a lot of aspects to my character beyond mother and teacher and wife and daughter, and even those four labels are incredibly complicated in terms of identity markers. But when I. Was very clear to me in terms of the narratives that I was hearing from the wider media, from my family, from my friends, from very well-meaning loving people.

That being a mother meant reducing yourself to that one identity, only getting used to it. That that was all that you were and that actually growth or rediscovering that multifaceted part of yourself would happen once they were older. So you just needed to pause and limit yourself to this one identity for a certain period of time and, and then you could get back to actually being the full human that you were once that that was done, or they were, they were older.

And I just push against that. I just think, you know. Yes, women become mothers, but that doesn't mean stop being the change makers, marathon lovers, the

the

before all still exists and motherhood just comes into that.

When they become father, they're not reduced in the same way. 

[00:21:54] Naomi Ward: And this image of the firework is staying with me because that energy that you had around that reduction, you, you took it and created. So what? What happened as you took that energy forward? 

[00:22:14] Emma Sheppard: So I founded in 2020 called the MTP Project, the maternity project.

So the MTP project is, it's the UK's charity now for parent educators. We got charity status in 2020. Prior to that, we were sort of a grassroots roots network, focusing particularly on networking spaces, connection, um, role model conversations. And now the, the bulk product, if you'll as a charity, is coaching.

So we offer group coaching and one-to-one coaching colleagues all when parental leave. Youngest child is five years old. Um, but we also do a lot of, um, campaigning at government level in terms of improving working conditions for the, the teaching profession, focusing specifically on this concept of life friendly schools and the conditions that help, um, colleagues to, to have lives at home or have families at home, and also show up effectively, um, at work.

Back I, my hug.

It was very much about sort of following this knowing I not broken or wrong or a bad mother for wanting to go the VA museum with my baby. I am not ashamed of listening to a podcast about something interesting. Whilst being on maternity leave, I'm allowed to go to a conference with my baby and connect with other professionals and my professional identity.

I'm able to be challenged. I'm able to be a leader. I can take a train. I can take a plane, I can do this with my husband. I can do this on my own. I can ask for help. Um, I can say I am here. Breaking through that, a lot of the shame that surrounds rocking up with a baby in a professional space. Um, you know, should you be here, do you belong here?

At the start was very much sort of doing that for my own wellbeing, but also sort of thinking I can't possibly be the only person who feels this way. I'm gonna talk about it so that other people who are too frightened to talk about it will feel that, that it's safe to speak about too. And by opening up that conversation in the very beginning, oh, there was so much relief.

You know, like, oh God, it's so boring, isn't it? Like I'm so bored being at home with this baby. I really miss being important or recognized or valued in the workplace. Oh my gosh. Like why? Why is my life just a constant cycle of laundry? Surely there must be more two things than this. Sometimes I really just want someone to take the baby away so that I can have five minutes to myself.

Actually going right on me too. That's cool. That's normal. That is so normal. Of course, you feel that way. Being a parent is really hard and you're, you know, one, one person and you have more to you than just being attached to a baby or, or being a servant to this tiny person's team. You know that there is only so much fulfillment you can get from a child screaming in your ear and then being sick on you.

And I think, you know, it's, it's funny, isn't it? Because we all know it and we can all resonate with it, but it's almost scary for me to say that out loud. Please take my baby away because I can't bear it any longer. And I just really want to watch this program about Shakespeare in performance in the classroom, you know?

And it, it's scary for people to say that because the expectation is you love your baby. Than anything else in the world. Of course we do, but that means erasing yourself. 

[00:26:01] Matt Hall: Mm. And I'm curious about this, this golden thread of coaching in, in getting you to this, to what you do now, but also in the work that you do now in, in allowing people to say those truths.

Yeah. What, where does coaching fit in the work that you do now? 

[00:26:20] Emma Sheppard: So, so we provide a variety of group coaching and one-to-one coaching programs for colleagues from the start of their leave all the way through to when their youngest child is five years old. Unfortunately, you've gotta put a bracket on it somewhere, otherwise people keep asking the same question, am I still allowed to do this?

So, and obviously funding is a charity is, is always a challenge. So we have to, from time, minutes on it to, to meet our funding needs and our priorities. Research has, and actually one of the reasons that I, we, we started with coaching and we will advocate coaching in, in this particular point of someone's life is because I have seen firsthand how it's, um, I think as a trainee teacher and as a new mom, there are lots of things that I need to be told.

Like, just give the information that I need for this baby to sleep safely or to get them into this, you know, enormous piece of material that's gonna make a sling. Um. A teacher, like, tell me some behavior management tips. Tell me what I should be teaching and how, how does spelling work? You know, teaching them to write an effective essay work.

Actually, as teachers and as parents, we're so bombarded with Do it this way, this is the right way to do it. Here's, here's the steps. Now do this. Now do that. By this point, here's the deadline. No, not that way. This way, this is the correct way that. You completely lose any sense of autonomy. And it becomes very, I think, very anxious space very quickly.

Like, am I doing it right? Am I doing it right in both identities? Um, and if I'm not doing it right, what the consequences, you know, who's gonna me as an off, who's gonna take my baby away to social services if I get it wrong? Um, if I'm bad, if I fail. Thousands of instructions that I'm getting every single day, and the coaching space really cuts through that the first time in their lives For many of the women we work with.

When we start by asking, what is it that you want? That's just like, um, don't really know. Nobody's that before in terms of what, and you go in terms of anything. What is it that you want in this session? From this aspect of your life and they go, you know, um, and it takes a long time for people to actually be able to articulate what I want.

They're very good at saying what they don't want. And then you could obviously use the positive opposite. Say, if you don't wanna get up at 5 45 in the morning, what do you want? If you don't want, uh, to be, to feel worthless? The positive opposite of that, what do you wanna feel? And actually giving people the space to say, well, I wanna feel valued.

I wanna feel important, I wanna feel loved. And then saying, what does that mean to you? Practically means that you just give them so much power over their own lives. It goes back to these students over their own destinies, over their own identities, over their own happiness. Removing that word. Should I should be doing X, I should be doing Y.

Uh, replacing, I think the should for me in a couple of coaching session and wand, a lot of people just don't give themselves permission. They're so surrounded by duty and obligation and follow the rules that when you, when you ask them what they want as parents, and then sometimes they say what they, what they think is the right thing to say, and you go, is that really what you want?

What do you really want? And they, and they go, you know, actually, I really don't want that. This is what I really want. You know, sometimes people laugh, sometimes people cry because they're just like, I've never said it out loud before. I never realized that that's what I want. And now that I've heard it, I can't not have it.

I have to have that myself. My life. Um, so I think that's why coaching is so powerful. This intersect identities at this stage in a parent. 

[00:30:09] Naomi Ward: Absolutely. And, and having worked with, you know, mothers with babies, you know, the baby's often there, often part of the conversation, we'll make a noise that, so it can also transform understanding of what coaching is.

You know, it is, it is possible in, in this environment. Um, and really beautiful also have toddlers crashing into furniture and the calls kind of ending abruptly, but. It's so important and, and this idea of losing your sense of self and just being asked that question and refining yourself is, it's very moving.

And, and I wonder then for an organization, this may be invisible to them, this kind of struggle that working parents are in. What's the opportunity for them like. What should, or what can they do to make this transition generative? And I know you've got some wonderful stories about, you know, people coming through promotion and, you know, arriving back at work differently.

Yeah. What's the opportunity here? 

[00:31:23] Emma Sheppard: There's a real opportunity to listen to their staff because actually. From company to company, organization to organization, school to school. The context is gonna be very, very different for staff on the ground. And there are thousands of schools who are getting it really, really right.

And actually, I love data. I love statistics, I love research and. We're in a sort, sort of more human way than, than those numbers here. But a third of, of our, of our teaching staff in, in England are women age 30 to 39 now. Uh, and that's risen from, from 27%. So a third of our whole workforce are in that sort of child bearing demographic.

Um, many of them are there and miserable, but many of them are there. And thinking, I'm in the most rewarding profession in the world. I love my job. Get to hang out with these brilliant young people all day and make a difference in their lives, their schools or their, their trusts or their local authorities have given them the conditions that that work for them.

Whether that be flexibility, whether that be improved pay when they're on parental leave, which which does actually exist. And we're doing a piece of work on that at the moment. Compassionate leadership, the support when they return to work, the engagement during their leave period, and they're thinking, you know, how have I lucked out so much?

I've been able to work in this industry, but also then gives me the time to spend of my children, but the insight as well into our best to nurture my own children and help them to grow. Safely and, and, and responsibility. I mean, some of the insight I have as a, as a professional around neurodivergence, around the systems that are in place in terms of getting appropriate support for my own children around screen safety and, and screen limitations around the importance of structure and planning and, uh, talking about emotions and, um, particularly around sort of gendered stuff.

I've got a girl and a boy and, and making sure that there's space for my both children. Talk about and express their emotions and all that stuff that I've learned as a teacher that I'm now able to bring into my parenting, that makes me feel so confident that they have, they've got a pretty good deal, um, as a, as a, as a parent there, um, because I'm informed and what, what value, you know, there's so many, so many people in the profession that are just thinking, this is brilliant.

But unfortunately there are also lots of, of women who are stagnating, who are leaving the profession, who are having a horrible time. On. Each individual setting. So the first step that I always say to organizations is, have you spoken to your staff? What, what was their experience of? Can you get them together for a cup of coffee and just, do you have this, will they feel safe sharing that with you?

Or is this, you know, do you need to start with a survey? And what questions or will you be asking them in this survey? Or, you know, who is it that's gonna be leading this, this conversation or this focus group? Somebody who has positive relationships, they trust not to punish them. Um, for, for being honest.

And if the truth isn't gonna come out in that first conversation, then what's the follow up conversation? And often when I'm working with schools, they shift quite quickly from the, we're gonna do to our staff to, you know, we're gonna implement, we're gonna offer them this, we're gonna employee assistance program, we're gonna do this, we're gonna flexible part-time, we're gonna, you know, we've got, we're gonna shovel these gifts at them.

And the shift then to, we're gonna listen to our staff and see what they want and they either come back being like, gosh, what they're asking for is really not, not difficult for us to do. It's just about sort of tweaking and shifting, evolving. Or they come back in tears and are like, I thought it was really great.

And it turns out everybody's really, really unhappy. And what we need to do is make those changes 

[00:35:09] Matt Hall: mean the irony. The business of raising and looking after children and educating children are sometimes places that aren't very good at helping people look after children. Um, is not lost on me. 

[00:35:25] Naomi Ward: Mm. 

[00:35:26] Matt Hall: It seems weird somehow.

I think somehow someone was looking in to our culture and saying, wait, wait a minute. Schools are, schools are the experts on how you support parents with kids, and yet, and yet, if you work in one. They didn't always get it right. Seems weird. 

[00:35:42] Emma Sheppard: That really comes back to this question of, of being human and that humanity as well.

A real emotional push for women in particular leaving the profession is why am I expected that everybody else's children first, but not mine? I refuse to do that, and for them being human is being that. You know, their priority is their own family and their own children. Their, their immediate, um, family.

And actually the, the majority of people who aren't able to do that to put, feel like they're putting their children first. That's where the resentment happens, and that's where we see eventual attrition. And there are actually a lot, a lot of colleagues who work full-time have very high powered jobs.

Work long hours, hours, but do have that feeling that for them they are still able to put their children first and their children are their priority. But again, it's so personal in terms of what that means. For some people, that means being present for them, um, 24 7. For other people, that means I am there and I'm present at the weekend.

Um, for other people it means I am facilitating all the opportunities that they need. To be happy and, and to grow. Um, and, and that gives us immense pleasure as a family. Um, which means that when we do get to sit down, those moments are precious. But I think that also changes depending on the age of your child, like children's needs and parents' needs, and family fulfillment looks very different as your children grow.

[00:37:09] Naomi Ward: It feels like it's coming back to where we started the, the presence, the listening, the human connection, because everyone is different. Mm-hmm. And you have choice and, and we haven't even got into the sort of cultural differences here 'cause I know you've worked internationally, but, but I think there's something about the invisibility and the silence, and I hope that anyone listening who is a teacher, parent or you know, is maybe having some of these thoughts.

It's, it's incredibly liberating to hear them. Voiced and I, I was one of that statistic, you know, 30 to 39, leaving the profession with two very small children. 'cause I, I felt I was a failure. Mm. But you know, if I'd had a conversation with a coach, they might have asked me a question like your coach did.

And everything changes. Mm. So I think there's an opportunity here for that coach who's so good at interrupting sort of patterns and beliefs and the stories we, we have. To keep really good people in our schools and in international schools. So that's me on my soapbox. 

[00:38:22] Matt Hall: Well, I'm gonna, I wanna cl, I wanna climb onto the box because, um, I think one thing that I'm hearing in the conversation and that we've, we see is also the how a coaching approach.

I would say this because we believe in the work we do, but how it is humanizing. So there is getting coaching to deal with these transition points, but there's also having a coaching mindset, heart set approach to these things. 'cause these issues are true of parents, but I've seen them in the work we do.

When someone needs to leave school to go and see a really unwell relative in another country, they need to go home. Or they're dealing with a personal crisis. It's, you know. How do we treat this circumstance as humans before policy or procedure or system? I've worked in schools where the, you know, so you need to go home because someone's unwell.

You go. It's not for us to decide whether that's valuable or whether that person's unwell, because you know, whether that matters because they're a, you know, immediate relative or a long distance relative. You go, it's not for us to decide that. And then I've seen other cultures where, well, you know, you can only have leave to go and see an unwell relative if it's your.

Immediate, immediate relative. And I think there's just something about to what extent do we stand in our humanity when we're making these decisions, whether it's about parenting or, or any other element of the complexity of being human. 

[00:39:44] Emma Sheppard: I think there's so much of our. Our professional roles, our working roles, you know, it's one tiny part of our, our lives, but I, I dunno about you, but life feels like it's become more complicated, um, more detailed, more complex.

The, the older I get and actually work is a hugely satisfying and, and fulfilling and motivation, motivating part of my life. But actually there's so much more going on in that and if, if I'm profoundly unhappy as a human being. I cannot show up for work. But also if somebody was working for me and said, you know, I'm profoundly unhappy because my work is not allowing me to attend to or be fulfilled in these other areas of my life.

I, I, I don't want my, my people, my staff, my colleagues to my teams to be profoundly unhappy, even if they're doing a fantastic job, like. That's awful. Like what do you wanna be remembered for as an organization? Yeah, we got great results. We got great outcomes, we made great profit, and our people were miserable because we didn't allow them the space to be happy humans.

Um, 

[00:40:55] Naomi Ward: you 

[00:40:55] Emma Sheppard: don't, you don't wanna be remembered for that, 

[00:40:56] Naomi Ward: do you? So in light of our conversation, Emma, I wonder if your response has evolved. Um, what does it mean to be human? 

[00:41:09] Emma Sheppard: Yeah, I think a lot of the things that I've, I've talked about have been about self-actualization, the, the freedom to be who you want to be and to do and feel how you want to feel and do the things you want to do.

You know, being able to be in control of what, what makes you feel good, um, what supports you to feel fulfilled. That seems to, I think come, have come outta a lot of our conversation there, this concept of autonomy over self-actualization. 

[00:41:41] Naomi Ward: Very much so. And yeah, thank you for role modeling that in, you know, the moments of insight that you had that you then took on to create this extraordinary, you know, offer that you've put into the world.

So, um. We'll continue to follow your work. And where can we find out more about you, Emma, if we want Well, I'm so glad you're asking Amy. So 

[00:42:06] Emma Sheppard: you can go to our website at www mtp org uk. Um, and that has all the information you probably need. If you're on Instagram, you can also follow us at, at tpt. Tpg we're on LinkedIn as well, but I, I tend to post, so if you follow me, Emma.

And we, we actually steer clear of a lot of the other social media platforms because they're not very human. They're actually quite horrible. Um, so we've, we've settled for Instagram and LinkedIn as a happy, um, compromise of speaking to the internet, speaking to our audience through the internet. Hey, thank you so much.

Thanks, 

[00:42:46] Matt Hall: Emma. Good to talk to you. I mean, it's so obvious, isn't it, that people who work in schools are going to have children. And yet, and yet we seem to be continuing down this industrial model of delivery that, that at best kind of, you know, notices that and at worst doesn't. Um, that's given me a lot to think about that conversation.

[00:43:18] Naomi Ward: Absolutely, and I love Emma's clarity and emotion and humanity in sharing all of human experience, which is that being a parent is wonderful and it's really hard and it's not all of who you are. Even when the messages we receive is that. It probably is. And she also makes space for all the different experiences in between.

And as with all our guests, we just wanna keep talking and, and keep collaborating. And I'd love to talk more about what this looks like internationally as well when you're far from home. Um, and things become even more layered. 

[00:44:01] Matt Hall: And for me it really is a timely reminder of particularly knowing the other conversations we're having in this series about the relationship between coaching.

And identity and the way in which coaching gives us a conduit to better understanding our identity in the position of our identity and our work and in our life. And, and that she really high highlighted that for me. And, um, I know we've got some more guests this season that are gonna help us do that. So yeah, lots to think, lots to think about, and lots to take to our future conversations.

[00:44:33] Naomi Ward: Mm. Some really juicy themes emerging. Yeah. So thanks Matt. See you for the next one. 

[00:44:38] Matt Hall: See you soon.

Thanks for listening. If something in this conversation stirred something in you, a thought, a feeling, a question, we'd love to hear about it. You can find ways to connect with us and more about the inter being gathering in the show notes. This podcast is part of a wider dialogue, one that unfolds between us, our guests, and you.

So whether you're walking the dog, driving to school, or just taking a quiet moment for yourself. Thanks for being part of it. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep listening in. This is into being.