The Essence of Teamwork, with Nick Pope

In this episode of the Interbeing podcast, Naomi and Kyra are joined by Nick Pope, a speaker, facilitator, and coach with extensive experience working with executive teams globally. Nick shares insights from his new book 'Are You a Team or a Meeting?' discussing themes of teamwork, prioritisation, and the significance of purpose in teams. He provides valuable advice on transforming meetings into effective teams, emphasising the importance of humanity, cultural diversity, and shared purpose. The discussion also touches on overcoming challenges like exhaustion, the desire to be 'right,' and making space for genuine, productive collaboration.

00:00 Welcome to Interbeing
02:01 Introducing Our Guest: Nick Pope
07:04 Challenges Teams Face: Exhaustion and ‘Rightitis’
15:19 The Importance of Team Purpose
19:05 Practical Tips for School Leaders
26:52 Creating a Culture of Dialogue and Decision-Making
27:34 Managing Team Turnover and Long-Term Purpose
29:52 The Impact of Cultural Diversity on Team Performance
37:46 Addressing Lone Wolf Syndrome in Teams
38:37 The Role of Leaders in Shaping Team Culture
44:18 Final Thoughts and Reflections on Team Dynamics

Nick Pope’s expertise bridges the space between science and practice. As a scientist, his academic research focuses on the six conditions which create high performing executive teams. As a practitioner, for over two decades he has developed global leaders for some of the world’s most dynamic organisations, including Unilever, Nike, AstraZeneca, Lloyds, Rio Tinto, and Gucci. Engaging, pragmatic, and highly adaptable to the needs of a group, Nick is able to draw from his extensive expertise of working with over 1,000 teams in more than 50 countries from 15 different sectors. He is also visiting faculty on several international leadership programmes, and a sought after executive coach.
His forthcoming book “Are you a Team or a Meeting?” will be published by The Economist in Spring 2026.

Nick is based in Sydney with his wife and children. A keen adventurer, he loves exploring wild new places, especially ancient forests and mountains. He also loves music and is a drummer and DJ. Nick is determined to make the most of life and has gained a deep sense of perspective having lost a number of close friends and family members early in life. He is a founder and trustee of the HKM Foundation, a registered charity that provides music therapy for terminally ill children.

You can find us on Linkedin at
Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/
Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Interbeing is made by Making Stuff Better https://makingstuffbetter.com/ and produced by Emily Crosby Media https://emilycrosbymedia.com/

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Naomi Ward: Hello and welcome to series four of the MSB podcast and to our new name, Interbeing 

[00:00:13] Matt Hall: in our previous seasons, we've explored themes like belonging, organizational health, and the future of education. 

[00:00:19] Naomi Ward: This time, we are returning to the source of what we do. Coaching and how the values of coaching can support people in schools to look both inwards, reconnecting with their own humanity and outwards to cultivating generative relationships with care and curiosity.

[00:00:38] Matt Hall: You might be wondering about our new name. Inter being is a term coined by Zen Master Thích Nhất Hạnh. It describes the deep interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. Nothing exists in isolation. Everything is in relationship, constantly influencing and being influenced by everything else. 

[00:00:57] Naomi Ward: This thread of relationship of inter being colors, everything we're exploring this season, we are in conversation with voices we are drawn to in the world of coaching and with educators in international schools who are walking with us, reflecting on what's changing for them and the questions they're living into.

Now, 

[00:01:15] Matt Hall: we're not here to present coaching as the answer to everything. Instead, we want to have honest, open conversations about where coaching works, where it doesn't, and what possibilities lie ahead. 

[00:01:26] Naomi Ward: And this season is just the beginning. Inter being is also the name of our annual in-person gathering, a space to explore these themes more deeply face-to-face.

You can find more about that in the show notes. 

[00:01:40] Matt Hall: As always, we are guided by curiosity and by the aliveness of the unfolding conversation between us. We ask everyone the same first and last question, but what happens in between is shaped by the people in the room, including you. 

[00:01:54] Naomi Ward: So thank you for being here.

[00:01:55] Matt Hall: Welcome to Inter Being.

[00:02:01] Kyra Kellawan: So today we have a really, uh, wonderful guest called Nick Pope, uh, who is a speaker, a facilitator, and a highly sought after coach to executive teams and board. He's the founder and managing director of the Academy of High Performance Teams. He spends his time between Sydney and, uh, consulting on various different projects.

Right now he's in, he's in Europe every six weeks, so his latest book, uh, is published by the Economist Edge Series, and it's called Are You a Team or a Meeting? It's out in February this year. Um, and I know that he's, uh, worked with you, Naomi, uh, on a couple of things as well. So I believe you know Nick quite well.

[00:02:41] Naomi Ward: And, and first of all, I just want to say hello, Kyra, because Matt is, uh, not here today. He's unwell. So it's, um, I. We are taking over the podcast, Kyra today, and this, maybe this is permanent, we'll let him know. But, um, yeah, just moonlight. But yes, I met Nick on a course a few years ago and was really struck by his humility, expertise, um, willingness to learn and be changed and be in the process and, and.

Really generously, he's offered me and us at MSB some guidance when we've needed it. So it is taken a little bit of organizing 'cause he's in demand. But we've managed to find a time with him today and I'm excited, um, for everyone to listen in to his wisdom. About teams and how you might apply it in your own, your own day to day.

It's fascinating. It's needed. It's, it's essential because we spend a lot of time in teams. So what if they brought us more joy and connection, human connection over frustration. So yeah, we hope you enjoy.

So welcome everyone to another edition of Inter Being with MSB, and I'm delighted to be here with my friend and colleague, Kyra and and welcome Nick Pope to the podcast. It's good to see you very much. 

[00:04:07] Nick Pope: Thank you. 

[00:04:08] Naomi Ward: And I know that you're fresh from, well soon. To have your first book published, so I sort of feel this kind of energy of celebration or maybe relief.

What's, what's here for you? 

[00:04:23] Nick Pope: Yeah. Celebration. I think Celebration. The relief has passed, but the, um, yeah, celebration definitely of being able to get my first book. 

[00:04:32] Naomi Ward: It's amazing. And I know we're gonna dive into the book 'cause it feels really relevant to our audience and our listeners here. So thank you for being here.

But I want to start with a question we offer everyone on this season, which is, what does it mean for you, um, in this moment to be human? 

[00:04:52] Nick Pope: Mm. That's a lovely question and I think it's a question for anyone in a, a team as well. And, uh. The title of the book, are you a team or a meeting in some way speaks to that?

I think because, um, groups of people that end up coming together and gradually being slightly less human with each other, not through any intent to do so, but just because of some of the factors they find themselves in, um, causes teams to become meetings. So what does it mean to be human? I think it means to.

This isn't mine, but I always, you know, to ask, how are you and actually genuinely care about the answer or have time to listen to the answer. I think it means to really listen. Esther Perls got a lovely quote, which is, it's the listener that creates the speaker. So to really give somebody your presence.

Which is easier said than done when you are, you know, running a million miles an hour. But to be human is to genuinely care and listen and be interested in someone, I think, um, without wanting anything in return, just to do it because that's what humans should do with each other. So yeah, I think that's what it means to be human.

Hmm. Of course, none of which I, all of which I aspire to, and maybe, uh, 5% of which I try and do in my daily life. But, uh, when I can do it or when somebody does it with me, then there's just that lovely sense of humanity existing between the two of you. So, 

[00:06:33] Naomi Ward: Hmm. 

[00:06:34] Nick Pope: Disclaimer, 

[00:06:36] Naomi Ward: and I, I love the simpl simplicity of that answer, which I think, I think we kind of know in our bones.

Um, and what gets in the way. How do we fall into this trap of transaction and meetings and, and, and, and what is lost? And, and this title is so thrilling, almost. I love the, you know, are you a team or a meeting? 

[00:07:01] Nick Pope: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:01] Naomi Ward: What, what dehumanizes us? 

[00:07:04] Nick Pope: I think a couple of things. Um, again, making a bit more about teams.

Um. Well, often looks like a lack of teamwork when I get asked to go and work with a team, um, sometimes it's got nothing to do with the team at all. It's context in which they work in. Exhaustion is often confused. There's just simply too much work. Somebody in their organization is not making choices or is saying yes too much, or there's dynamics which lead to people saying, absolutely, we're gonna stop that, and then it grows in the corner there.

So I think two things get in the way. One is exhaustion and some of the root causes, which we might get into a bit later around. Why is it that teams find it so difficult to prioritize? Um, I've never, ever worked with a team where when you ask them say, well, how could you, how could you work more effectively?

I've never worked with a team where they haven't said they need to get better at prioritization. So there's something in that that we find really difficult as groups when we come together. To prioritize. But when we don't, that leads to overwhelm and that leads to exhaustion, and then that leads to a lack of humanity between people.

So I'd say that's the first thing. Um, the second thing is something that I call, uh, rhinitis. Uh, titis is the addiction to being right and thinking that your way of doing something is the right way of doing it. And in some cases, the only way of doing it. And that's amplified if, particularly if you've done the job of the person that you are talking to, where you already have a mental model of how something should be done.

And we become secretly addicted to our way of getting this done. And very few of us live in the world where there's literally only one way that you can do something. Uh, but in our own minds, the more we become. Aware of those things that we're holding onto really tightly, that we really think it should be done this way.

The more tightly we hold those, the more difficult it is to meet people and to really listen to how they might wanna do it. Often we think of collaboration as just working well with someone else. Um, I describe that as cooperation. Um, in my book I talk about the the six Cs and this journey towards collaboration and co-creation.

And for me, collaboration is all about difference. How willing am I. Really to let go of all of those clever ideas that I've got and, uh, the way that I've done it in the past that, you know, I think is right. How willing am I to let those go? Um, and if you are willing to do the same. Then maybe, maybe we might be able to create something that neither of us knew before we sat down.

Uh, and, uh, I know you're a poet. You'll probably want to drop in the poem here. Just give you a lovely line up from Rumi. 

[00:09:57] Naomi Ward: You've put me on the poetry hot seat and I wasn't ready beyond, beyond the right and wrong. There is a field. I'll meet you there. You've, you've got it off the tip of your tongue. Yeah, 

[00:10:07] Nick Pope: I think it's just, um.

What gets in the way of this humanity? And I think that's, that's one of them, which is because of this exhaustion, because of this busyness, uh, we end up just sometimes working on autopilot. And we, we haven't got time really to actually let those things go as are afraid of doing that. But in those rare moments that we can.

And, uh, in my book I talk a little bit about how should teams set their time up, this big sort of spaciousness, uh, thinking time that they have together. In those rare moments that we do, sometimes humanity can be restored in those moments and we leave with more energy because we're creating something that actually neither of us, neither of us knew before.

[00:10:52] Kyra Kellawan: I'd love to ask you about those two things. You know, the busyness being. Really, really, one of the things that we hear so often from school leaders is the, there's no time. Mm-hmm. There's a sense of being locked into a schedule. Your time is spoken for before you even begin the school year. You, you feel like you have everything planned out and, you know, I was curious, um, reading on your website about how many teams you've actually interacted with over your career.

I think it's something like over a thousand teams you've worked with in 50 different countries, different industries. And I'm wondering. If that is, you know, something that you've come across time and time again, that those two things you've just highlighted for us are the same, across industries, are the same across cultures, or are there big differences?

[00:11:39] Nick Pope: No, I don't think, as I said, I don't think I've ever come across any of anyone in those thousand teams that haven't said, oh, we've got, we've got too many priorities, we haven't got enough time. And this sense of sort of being trapped in a little bit by your own, um, schedule, which. You know, in a school setting with the rhythm of that will probably feel even more like the walls are, are coming in and there are a couple of perspectives on this.

You know, you could go to the right, the extreme time is infinite. It's not about the time, it's about the energy we we to it. I think I'm slightly more practical. Having also worked in organizations for 20 years and felt really time poor as well to recognize that well yeah, we all are under. Um, time pressure.

So rather than just take a purely philosophical stance to that, what, what actually can we do about it as a team to try and give ourselves a, a, a little bit of, of space? Um, and I think there are some things, if you'd like me to, you want me to share a few ideas on this one and the prioritizations Now a good time?

[00:12:40] Naomi Ward: Yeah, 

[00:12:41] Nick Pope: yeah, yeah, 

[00:12:41] Naomi Ward: yeah. Go ahead. 

[00:12:42] Nick Pope: So I mentioned before like teams are too busy. Uh, one of the reasons why they're too busy is they're also too big. There are too many of them. And that's a feature in pretty much every organization I work in. Whenever there seems to be some kind of issue in the organization, it's like, right, okay, we need to put a team together on this.

And very quickly, what ends up as your home team? So the team you. Feel you fit in most naturally where your colleagues are doing similar work, where you've got shared purpose very quickly. You end up having to jump into this meeting and this meeting and this meeting because somebody thought it was a really good idea to set a team up to try and solve something that actually an individual could make a decision on.

So one of the first antidotes to busyness is sort of to look at your calendar and look at all of the different teams you're on there and ask yourself, do we really need a team for this? Uh, aid Imon talks a bit about teaming as a verb and how groups. So people can swarm together. She uses the examples of hospitals, uh, where teams have to come together very quickly to do some shared work, but then they go, they're not really a team.

Um, and I think over the last 10 to 15 years in a really. Important effort to be more inclusive and to hear from everyone and the quietest voices in the room. Sometimes that can go a little bit too far and we end up just creating too many teams. So tip number one is to look at the source of busyness, and is it because you've got too many teams or are there too many people on there?

Some leaders are terrified about resetting the membership or de inviting somebody from the team. Uh, the optimum size routine, by the way, uh, the research is quite consistent on this is six, somewhere between six to seven, uh, because that's roughly the number of relationships that a group of people can manage between each other.

As soon as you go any more than that, I routinely work with, you know, teams that are around 10. Uh, recently I was asked to work with a team of 22 people. As I say in my book, somebody had a nice quote about that. They said, you know, we're, we're not a team. We're not even a meeting. We're a small conference.

So like some teams aren't even really meetings because they're so big and they lend themselves to this sort of polite congregation type setup where the leader. We'll just talk at them and then, you know, somebody might ask a question and then we're done. Like, that's not a team. Um, so yeah, teams get really busy and too busy because they are too big, too many, and there's not enough of them.

One of the reasons why teams struggle to make choices is they lack a sense of what their purpose really is. And by purpose, I don't mean the. You know, like the whale breaching through the water with some kind of words, not necessarily the very high level purpose that the organization of the school might have already set.

I'm talking about like, what, what is the purpose of this team? What can we uniquely do together that we can't do by ourselves? Who do we really serve as a team? What do we wanna be famous for? Uh, these types of questions, many of these have got in my book and we can definitely offer them to our listeners as a follow up.

But if we don't really understand. What is it that actually we're meant to be doing as a team? Then we will do everything. We will become this sort of distribution hub for vending machine problems, anything that comes in, and we will, I talk about the altitude of the team. Are we really flying at the right altitude?

Are we looking at things that only we. Can decide and create value on as a team? Or are we struggling a bit from compression so we're losing altitude? And if we're the leadership team in the school, for example, are we starting to do the work of the people below us and are they starting to do the work of the people below them?

So everyone literally feels the weight of the world upon them, they're compressed as opposed to the leadership team. Which really understands this question. Um, and it's a brilliant question. It's from, uh, professor Peter Hawkins, one of my great inspirations who talks about what can we uniquely do together that we can't do by ourselves.

And unless we start with that, we'll do everything. We'll get busy, um, people will have little pet projects. So we might say, okay, as a team, we're gonna decide not to do this. And we all nod. Uh, you know, everybody agreed, but nobody committed. And then suddenly in a couple of months time, this pet project that we thought we were gonna stop has kind of grown some, some legs.

So the place to look when we feeling like we are overwhelmed, uh, number one is the composition of the team and how we're working. And number two is have we really understood what our purpose is? As a team, it's quite hard work to do sometimes 'cause it can feel quite theoretical and esoteric. And then somebody will grab a flip chart and then it will end up as this big conga line of words.

It's not about that. It's about really understanding the questions, um, taking the time with them and coming up with the two or three things that we wanna stand for as a team. The next time a piece of work comes in or next time something, a big project comes in, we put it against our purpose. Instead. If we were to fully step into our purpose as our, as our team, uh, what would it compel us to do?

Would it say do this, or would it say, you know what? It's difficult as it is. We need to say no because every no is a chance to say yes to something. That's really important. Ever. We know banks a yes for something that you really want to, uh, respond to. Um, if you've ever come across the folks at Corporate Rebels, they've got this, like most teams will have a kind of stop, start, continue type thing, which you would've heard of.

They have something which I prefer actually. It's a big kind of matrix that you can put on the wall and it's called to stop. Stopping and stopped. Um, so things that we need to stop, things that actually we are in the process of stopping and things that we should celebrate that we have stopped because, love it.

Most of us, you know, love to start something. Uh, a question for leaders at school is around who are you rewarding? Are you rewarding those that sort of innovate with the bright, shiny, those types of people? You, you absolutely need to do that. Well. I so rewarding those people that stop things, um, stop difficult things in the face of criticism and, you know, popularity.

So I quite like that 'cause it reframes the social norm around what does it mean to stop things. Because as I've said, every note is a chance to say yes to something which might be more important. 

[00:19:34] Kyra Kellawan: Yeah. I think that's Naomi and our team actually. I think you're, I think you're a good stopper and, and yeah, we do.

You are absolutely right. Sometimes you need somebody who will see the, who will just bring you back to questioning why, and, and, and bring you back to your team's story. And I'm, I'm reminded of Owen Eastwood's work and we've had him on. This. Oh, love as well. Speaking about forming your team's narrative, your team's story Yeah.

At the beginning and, and what you just said about purpose is very similar, and I noticed when you said it, how, you know, your, your, your body shifted. You, you sat back in your chair, you looked up. No, see the video of this conversation. So I'm describing your body language so that the listeners know that when you were talking about, um, coming back and, and thinking about, you know, purpose, you looked up, you, you talked about looking up, um, and not getting compressed.

[00:20:27] Nick Pope: Yeah, there's a grounding that, um, comes I think from a team that not only understands its purpose today, but has understood its purpose over the years as well. Because most people in leadership teams or any team really, we are all just passing through our job is to make the team better for the folks that follow, but those that have.

Before us that have made our joining of this group possible. And if we can really honor what this purpose is, just like the, you're probably seeing a little bit of grounding and some roots there. As I, as I set up, uh, whatever wind, blow, whatever of the state, hold as that causing lots of noise or problems or whatever the world throws at the team.

Then the depth and honoring of the purpose really helps them just stand that little bit taller, I think. So rather than it be a once a year offsite conversation, it's uh, every single meeting printed on the front of our agenda. It's talking about it, it's rewarding people that step into it. Um, the Japanese product proverb, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

Uh, so it's nice that in your organization, Naomi is the person that's saying, Hey, but. In other organizations, that's often a real risk of loyalty and popularity because if you are the leader and you are a very enthusiastic leader who has been away on holiday, hopefully read by your team or a meeting, um, and has come back with lots of ideas and said, right, team, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that.

The leader might be the worst perpetrator of just coming out with an X bright, shiny, and to disagree. With your leader and say, Hey, you know this, how does this fit with our purpose? Can, if you don't have a big enough relationship, can really be seen as a tester of loyalty. And quite understandably, people are a little reluctant to do it.

So, um, yeah, having folks that are willing to, to do that and the team is really important. 

[00:22:24] Naomi Ward: Ian, the word coming up. For me is, is discipline, but in the sense of like, who are you a disciple to? 

[00:22:32] Matt Hall: Oh, 

[00:22:32] Naomi Ward: and I'm thinking about school teams where you're in the pastoral team, the subject team, the senior team, and we sort of assume that implicit is a purpose and yet that doesn't elevate or transcends the, the sort of administration or the meeting.

[00:22:53] Nick Pope: Yes. 

[00:22:54] Naomi Ward: And I'm wondering, um, if, if we have time, maybe, maybe not, and, and that you're so generous, Nick, you've shared a copy of the book that I'm sort of racing through, but a sort of method, a way of finding a purpose. And what you mean by that is it, is it how, how, how do they sound? How do they feel once you've found it?

[00:23:17] Nick Pope: Mm. Yeah. You, you know, when you've come across something because the purpose is not just. Not just about the team. There's a fusing of the individual purpose as well. So it's not, um, there's a magic moment where people are talking about, so the, the questions, I can share them with you if you want. Um, and as I said there, I'm sure you've got some fancy way where your listeners can download them from a website or something.

But, um, the five questions that I ask to help a team work their purpose out would be, um, and we'll try and make them about your, um. Your school or, uh, your organization is, why did you choose to work here and why do you stay? That, why do you stay is quite important, uh, because it means that the purpose somehow is still being, uh, lived today, even at the most difficult times that a school might be going through.

That kind of why do you stay and why did you choose to work here? Take people back to a point of positive choice. Uh, one of the questions which I love particularly, um, for if you get. If you get the situation where you have lots of new members of the team coming in, that's quite a risky stage for a team.

You can sometimes get, uh, an old guard and a new guard. So you've got a bunch of people that have been there for a long time and then all these new people coming in. Uh, and that's a danger zone for leaders because very quickly you can get factions that form. And a good team leader is looking to move from the old to the new to the now to create something.

And one of the ways in which you can settle those people that have been around is by asking the second question, which is, what is it about who this team has been in the past that is so important it shouldn't be lost. What is it about who the team has been in the past that's so important and shouldn't be lost?

Um, so Naomi, you and I will know a little bit about order of joining exercises and telling the history and the story of the team. Um, so I always do that with the team. I get them to line up in a circle around their order of joining and we'll talk about, like, tell me the story of this team. Yeah. And it's about helping.

Some of the new folks that have joined understand what's made it possible for them to join, but also some of the challenges that the team have been through. So we might draw a timeline for that. Uh, so then question number three, which is a bit more challenging if we got rid of this leadership team or curriculum, if we just got rid of this team and you kept your job, but you just reported directly in what would we really miss?

And that challenges people. 'cause there's often a sense of. Miss that much really, which gets them thinking, we are not really thinking about our unique contribution here as well. What interestingly. The one thing consistently they will say they'll miss is your first question, which is that ability to be able to, to kind of come in, take off your jacket and just say, oh, I'm just having, you know, I'm having a terrible day.

I could really need some help. And it's that which is often forgotten in terms of purpose of team. It's this just ability to be able to be with each other. Question number four is, what can we uniquely do together and would be difficult for us to do by ourselves that our organization. The world of Tomorrow needs.

So this one, the team would spend a little bit more time on and not rushing it. You know, I, uh, just as a separate point, when I'm with teams, I often try and get them to separate their. Ideation meeting, their dialogue meeting and their decision meeting. Often teams will do that in one and we kind of feel this pressure to just come to a decision.

I'll say, no, this, this conversation is about the dialogue. It's about trying to get all the wisdom in the room. It's trying to about hear the wisdom in the nose, um, and then we're gonna make a decision. At this point here, just again, back to me, sitting into my chair, just relaxes people. So this was a, that, this is a good example of when you want to do that.

This type of question, what can we uniquely do together and what will be difficult to do by ourselves that, uh, our organization and the world of tomorrow needs? And the last question I ask people is, what do you wanna be famous for? If I were to write, um, you know, an article about you in The Economist, if you were to share with the rest of your members and you were to publish something, what would you love us to write about?

And I think particularly for teams where people will come and spend three to four years and then they'll all move on, um, some organizations actively manage that. So when you've constantly got people coming in and out of the team, the issue is people wanna come in, make a mark, they want to sort of, you know.

Do something over a couple of years, but they often don't get to live with their choices, uh, because things take a while to settle in unless you really have this long, deep root of purpose, which transcends every single team and the individual in that. So purpose is the real In you asked, what's the method?

There are four areas that I work on with the team, and the heart of it is purpose, but trying to do that in a way that doesn't feel like we're a horrible offsite next to a flip chart. Just trying to come up with this. Everyone's had that experience. I definitely have. I may have perpetrated a few of those crimes early in my career, but I definitely don't do them anymore.

Now it's about the conversation. 

[00:28:36] Naomi Ward: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've just got this image of a circle and you know, kind of leaning in, starting to lean into each other a little more. That question is really, and some of the questions have really landed in me and I'm already thinking, yeah, what is it that we do? We are not gonna have an offsite with you, Nick, but maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe just meet around a campfire or something.

[00:28:58] Nick Pope: Good. Very good. Yeah, you can bring in a guitar. 

[00:29:01] Kyra Kellawan: We'll definitely, definitely have those questions. I play the 

[00:29:03] Nick Pope: harmonica. So we're, we're basically sorted come. 

[00:29:07] Naomi Ward: Okay. It's on. 

[00:29:09] Kyra Kellawan: I'd love to make a blog post, um, around those questions, Nick, and, and people can download them and use them. But, um, yeah, we, you know, we can think through our size team.

MSB is seven and so you got, you got me thinking about, um. The roles that we play and how we, how we sort of can, can bring in some of these questions to what we do. We, we do, we have, we have some roles in the team that, that make us question. And I think that, you know, Naomi's one of them, Matt and Jill are always kind of thinking back to the story of the team and how it formed.

And I can, I can see loads that we can bring in with us too to what we're doing with the calls. But, um, I'd, I'd love to ask you a question about, about culture and go back to that, you know. That range of leaders that you've worked with, are there moments where culture, um, or differences of culture can both help or hinder some of these practices, some of these, these disciplines that you've, you've laid out for us?

Mm-hmm. Are there, are there ways in which we can become entangled culturally or are there, are there some parts about being part of an, an international team, for example, in a school that, that really are freeing, um, that mean that perhaps some of the. The bits that we get stuck in can be circumvented.

[00:30:25] Nick Pope: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a lovely question around culture, particularly at the international level where, um, some of the most interesting teams to work with are where you've got representation from. Many different nationalities, um, should already be some intellectual diversity in there as well. Fortunate with those teams that there's often a reasonable amount of gender diversity as well.

So if you put all of those things together, the research is very consistent, that diverse teams are either brilliant or they're horrific. There is no averageness, there's no, yeah, we're pretty good as a team. So the moment that I'm kind of sitting down and looking at this team and I can already feel. Uh, energy and the noise and the diversity in the room.

That's one of the questions I'm thinking. I'm like, I wonder which you are. Are you gonna be one of these teams that's learned to use the diversity and this difference in culture? Or actually do you end up going with the lowest common denominator? And very quickly you end up as, um, as a meeting? One of the questions I often get asked is around.

What trumps the culture? Is it the organizational culture or is the, uh, individual's culture when they come to the team, which is more important there? And I think if your question is more around team culture than international culture, am I right that just before I answer that, or were you thinking more from a country cultural perspective or a bit of both?

[00:31:49] Kyra Kellawan: I was thinking about both, but um, yeah. I'm curious to know if you've seen. That there, there are benefits from having individuals who come in with their, with their different cultural perspectives that mean that we, that some of the, some of the pitfalls that we've mentioned before don't happen. Or that they, they are different.

They change because you, you have different ideas coming in. You have different ways of, of. Um, you know, you talked about people coming back to the, the, the kind of the, the shiny, the new, the innovative. Are there cultures that you've seen are, are there leadership cultures that mean that maybe there's more reflection or there's more time or there's more space or there's more honoring given?

Um, and, and maybe that's a school culture thing. Maybe it's not an individual culture thing. 

[00:32:31] Nick Pope: I mean, are you, first of all, are there benefits? Definitely, without question. Um. It's interesting. I live in, uh, Sydney, Australia and the teams there versus when I work in Europe and Australia, they tend to have much, it's a very long way away, but they tend to have sometimes less representation of difference in those, uh, in those teams still, you know, can be very high performing teams as well.

But I noticed the energy, and particularly the ideas that come with those teams where you've just got a range of different, uh, nationalities and culture in there. So. Without a question, diverse teams will come up with much better ideas, and in particular in crisis situations when they're trying to respond, uh, to something which they haven't done before, having a diverse team, uh, it's definitely to your advantage.

But back to what we were saying before about teams are too big. There are too many of them, and this, uh, in a very well-meaning attempt to be inclusive, we end up actually sometimes just destroying that diversity. So a typical picture of what, you know, what I would see with a diverse team is, uh, problem statement one gets put out there by a leader Now.

Because folks are different and diverse very quickly, they're gonna be able, you know, coming up with lots of different ideas. And I often ask teams to think about that size. Like how, how big are you in this conversation? Because you'll have somebody that will spend this amount of time answering it. Uh, because in their culture, you know, they might think out loud perhaps their English also is not as concise as one of their colleagues if it's not their first language.

So they'll be talking and talking and talking, but not sort of reading the room at the moment and just seeing everyone start to, to zone out because they're not aware of their. Size, not physical size, but how much space am I taking up in this conversation? So sort of tip number one for diverse teams is everyone needs a very decent level of self-awareness to understand, uh, if I'm a team of seven.

Uh, okay. If everyone spends five minutes, just sharing a view very quickly, we're gonna run down the clock here. So it's about understanding, and I sometimes use the metaphor of cooking. If we are all kind of standing round, uh, cooking a dish together, standing by the pan, and we taste the dish and we ask ourself what does this need?

Um, everyone is largely agreeing with it. Do I really need to sort of put my agreement in there or am I better off actually just trying to bring some counterpoint, a different view. Even if I sort of agree with it anyway, if I taste it and just think, all right, we're all in agreement, but there hasn't actually really been any challenge.

Alright. I think we need a little bit of challenge. Um, or if I'm sitting there and the very typical thing that would happen is a couple of people who get very, very enthusiastic about it end up just having a bit of. Ping pong with each other, everyone elses warning and just sort of goes to their phone.

They're not in the conversation as a poem like I would usually stop it there and say, okay, these couple of people are having a lovely time playing ping pong with each other. Just what are the rest of you doing? Let's take a. Joint accountability for this conversation. So it's probably missing some perspective.

Somebody needs to be heard who isn't being heard, um, or there might be something else going on. Now, teams will often look to the leader to do that, but everybody in that team should play a rotating role of being able to take some perspective in the conversation or a very common thing that happens in teams.

If somebody has an idea, I think we should do that. I think we should do that. I think we should do that. And nobody follows. Because back to that point about rhinitis, they all want to have their, have their view. So, um, yeah, diverse cultures for sure, uh, are an amazing thing to have in a team. But very few teams know actually how to use them, and the skill is in when they're having conversations with each other and the role of a leader and the discipline of those conversations and the leader knowing when to step in and shut it down and when to step in and open it up.

[00:36:31] Naomi Ward: Hmm. We need like another seven episodes is what's coming up for me. 

[00:36:36] Nick Pope: It's going, going, 

[00:36:39] Naomi Ward: you know, I often in my coaching have leaders who come in and have inherited a culture that they kind of are disparaging of, you know, I've just got these, God, they just won't. Ah, 

[00:36:49] Nick Pope: oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:36:51] Naomi Ward: Because there's so much movement in international.

So that first a hundred days piece, um, there's also something around ego like the, and fear. You know, the fear of letting go of being right or the 

[00:37:03] Nick Pope: Mm mm 

[00:37:04] Naomi Ward: The fear of, um, speaking up 

[00:37:08] Kyra Kellawan: being the naysayer or being the challenger. Yeah. 

[00:37:11] Naomi Ward: Yeah. That, that really keeps us in a meeting. 

[00:37:14] Nick Pope: It does. 

[00:37:15] Naomi Ward: So I was just wondering, as we come to an end, I'm wondering what's the, what's the, what's the nice ending into the sequel?

[00:37:25] Nick Pope: Two thoughts then. So the, on that last one, the fear of, uh, fear of speaking up, people will do it once. Remember the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. People will do it once, twice if they're really stupid, until they kind of learn, okay? In this culture, the unwritten rule is you don't disagree with this person.

And actually, um, there are side deals done. We play little games and that creates something that I call lone wolf syndrome, which is, look, I've got my area here. If I look after this bit of the school, you've got your area there. Well, we can have a cup of coffee in the staff room, but as long as you stay in yours, I'll stay in mine.

Occasionally we might pair up and go after someone that is mutually irritating to us, both in a flash of teamwork, but then we'll just go back into our own little areas here. Um, so Lone Wolf syndrome, um, is pervasive in many, many teams. And, and it, back to your question around humanity, um, it's one of the things which just drives people apart.

The reason why Lone Wolf Syndrome exists in some ways is it's allowed Mm, in that. The culture is shaped by the worst behavior that as a leader you are willing to accept as you know, all of this, I'm sure from your other podcast. So, um, I often work with leaders around helping them be aware of what are you choosing to tolerate?

What are you letting go in this meeting? You know, somebody said something there, you didn't step in or you didn't intervene. Is that okay? Um, and what might, particularly when teams are. Have low trust. What you'll see quite a lot of under the waterline is some banter, which is an English word for jokes that can sometimes become a little bit mean at the expense of someone.

So we'll hear some of these. We'll hear sarcasm, we'll hear some banter. Oh, it's this person again, or It's this and it's that. Now if you are continuing to let that go as a. As a leader, what you kind of, what you, what you choose to tolerate shapes your culture a lot more than those big moments you step in.

Right? These are our values. Unfortunately, it's everything that you let go, which will shape your culture a lot more. Um, yeah. So if you are letting go when someone speaks up and they get hammered down, uh, as opposed to, rather than it making about an individual. Let's just say a very simple thing. Okay?

We've made a, we've made a decision as a team. We're gonna do a, B, C next year. Great. Okay. Everyone's relieved. They wanna get out the room. That leader could put in another round of counterpoint or challenge, say, okay, before we go, it's 12 months time, we are reviewing this decision. It's been an absolute disaster.

This is Gary Klein's idea of the pre-mortem. What did we miss today? Or what did somebody not say that was on the edge of their awareness? About for whatever reason, they thought, you know what? I'm just not gonna mention this. So only the leader can do that second round of challenge and um, and rather than it be about Naomi speaking up, because there's always a, you know, I describe a resident eel in every team, there's always that person or the chicken little saying, oh, this guy's falling in.

Like, you really need that person. There is wisdom in that. No. But you need that to be a shared function as opposed to just one individual always feeling like, why is it always me? That has to be the voice of sanity in this team. So, um, yeah, maybe idea number one is to have a shared round of counterpoint whenever you've made the decision.

Maybe a thought to leave you with, because you were talking about leaders that come into a culture that might be challenging. It might be brittle. There might be some things there from the past that are still present. Um, and there's a number of approaches for that leader. It's a, it's a, it's a tough assignment for, for many of them.

But the one thing which is consistent with leaders that are able to turn that around, um, is that they honor the past. Uh, in the book I write about a guy called Harish Patel. He's the CEO of a large consumer goods company, and he has this, I love a triptych or a little model as you know, and he has this lovely, um, approach of three, uh, h's that I'll, um, yeah, that I'll leave you with.

So if as a leader you find yourself coming into a situation and you are thinking, oh my God, it's like, what's been happening here? You know, the danger is in some ways to talk bad about the part. Decisions were made, probably with the best possible wisdom at that time. And, you know, you'll come in with your bright, shiny ideas, but, um, I've got fortunate news for you.

Like you are just, in a few years in organizations, there's often a systemic ejector seat. So you'll sit on that, um, seat and then the same thing will happen to you. So what Harish does, which I love, um, does three things that will begin with H. So the first thing that he does is he'll honor the past.

They'll talk about who this team and this organization has been in the past, and, you know, at their best, this is who we are really to the level of identity. Back to that question on purpose, I said, uh, what is it? We've been in the past that's so important to us, we can't lose. So the first H is to honor the past.

Uh, the second one is to be honest, tele like it's. Through. Nobody would want us to be here, but this is the culture that I see today. This is the feedback that our stakeholders are giving us. These are our results that we have so unfiltered, just tell it like it is, which is actually sometimes quite hard for some leaders.

'cause they want to pad it and they want to silver line it or they want to minimize it, you know, oh, you know, it's bad, but don't worry, we can do this and this. Like, no, just tell it like it's, and the third h. Um, can you guess what RB one is? So if we've got honor the past, be honest about the future, what's the last thing that you might want to do for the audience interaction?

[00:43:18] Naomi Ward: I love a quiz. I'm, I'm going straight to action and I think it's probably wrong, but there's the how, but I, I don't think it's that. Oh, you just created 

[00:43:26] Nick Pope: a brand new model, actually, which I, I think is even better. Thank you. Here we go. Great Co-creation. Um, here say the third is hope. Kind of hope. Hope is under massively underestimated in any organization, but really to give people hope that this group of people right now with the purpose that we've got, and uh, particularly if you've picked those people as well, to really help people believe that we can do it.

Uh, and then the fourth one, ward, uh, 2006, um, would be how, so yeah. What a lovely four things to, if you take away nothing else from this session and sort of honor the past. Be honest about where we are now. Give hope for where we could get to and maybe talk about the one or two things in the how not everything.

[00:44:12] Naomi Ward: Yeah. 

[00:44:13] Nick Pope: The one or two things that we need to get right now. 

[00:44:18] Naomi Ward: Fantastic. And you know, I can, I, it's always so fascinating talking to authors because there is that clarity and that ownership of. Work and it's just been such a rich conversation and, and I just wonder if we can finish on a fifth H, which is to go back to that initial question around humanity.

I wonder if, if in our conversation you'd add anything to what you offered? 

[00:44:48] Nick Pope: Hmm. Well, I think that, um. Just like that last interaction where I asked you rather than just shared it. I think that speaks to humanity in some ways because, um. If I was willing to ask and to listen, you were willing to share on the spot and come up with something.

And I was also willing to let go of, I quite like the three Hs, who doesn't, but now I've got the four Hs. And I think that sort of humanity of being able to do all of those things, meet someone in those conditions and create something that was better than it was, I think, I don't know, really speaks to the type of humanity that would love to see in teens because.

Teams need to get work done. There's a lot of work that they need to do. Uh, and I think humanity for me is means being able to, let's, let's create some really good work together. Um, but perhaps work that, you know, neither one of us thought. We might end up like that because that's when you, I think that's when you really get into territory of, we ask people, what's the best team that you work?

Uh, they'll talk about how they worked with each other. It's really fun. We did good work. We worked long hours. You know, they very rarely, if ever, will talk about we hit this metric and we did that. They never do that. So they talk about creating some new stuff and how they did that as well. So yeah, I think it was just a lovely example of.

Humanity in action just by being able to do some of the things that we said. 

[00:46:19] Kyra Kellawan: Agreed. Five part H model 

[00:46:24] Naomi Ward: human at the end. Thank you so much. I know this will stimulate a lot of conversations and you know, at MSB we're sort of treading softly into this world of teams with, with great reverence and, and, you know, people like yourself we really look to for that, that kind of inspiration and experience.

So yeah. Thank you. 

[00:46:43] Nick Pope: Great pleasure. 

[00:46:44] Naomi Ward: Further conversation. 

[00:46:45] Nick Pope: Thank you very much.

[00:46:51] Kyra Kellawan: Wow. Wasn't that great to speak to somebody who has their thinking so fresh from, from creating a book. Um, I loved hearing his, his, his frameworks and models, but also how, how human he was and that he kept coming back to the people and the way that the people are with each other. 

[00:47:10] Naomi Ward: Yeah. Very much so. Um. And I think that genius of simplifying what is complex, you know, all those people coming together with their own history, hopes, fears, and disentangling all of that, or entangling all of that to, to get work done.

But I can really resonate with that idea of like, yes, it's about the work, but it's also the process. You know, is that where the joy lives in teams? And I wonder about listeners if they think about this. Yeah. What's a team you've been part of where you felt that energy and aliveness and what was happening?

[00:47:53] Kyra Kellawan: Um, yeah, and that safety, I, I heard so much about, um, you know, crafting the story together, allowing for difference and allowing people to feel safe. Um, because you feel you belong to the story. You, you're part of it, you are part of co-constructing it. Um, and it affects you. It's not, it's not something that you are, you're just given, uh, you know, here's your task, here's, here's how you execute it.

But rather, what, what's good about this conglomerate of people at this time? And I think we, we asked some similar questions about the conversation that can take place with these people at this point in time, in this room. And honoring that. Um, and I, I, I think there were some overlaps there with what Nick was saying about, you know, what can the team do 'cause of who we are and because of what we are, what we bring?

Yeah. 

[00:48:46] Naomi Ward: What's, what can this team do now in this moment of history that is unique to us? And it does sound lofty, you know, when we think about the day to day, but it's needed, it's necessary. And grounding, like you notice so beautifully. So. As you may know, we are offering a new program called Extraordinary Teams, and we, we are influenced by, by Nick and the work he's citing around storytelling and, and meaning and, and purpose and, and the very practical things about rituals and structures.

So, um, yeah. Do you, do you find out more about that? But as, as always. Thank you for listening and, and do share what you are taking away and I'll see you next time. Kyra, thank you for being my co-host today. It's been a joy. Thank you. 

[00:49:32] Kyra Kellawan: Yeah. Matt will be back, uh, in the next episode, but thanks for letting me tag in today.

[00:49:37] Matt Hall: Thanks for listening. If something in this conversation stirred something in you, a thought, a feeling, a question, we'd love to hear about it. You can find ways to connect with us and more about the inter being gathering in the show notes. This podcast is part of a wider dialogue, one that unfolds between us, our guests, and you.

So whether you're walking the dog, driving to school, or just taking a quiet moment for yourself. Thanks for being part of it. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep listening in. This is Interbeing.